Life In 19x19

Uberdude wrote:For example Nikola Mitic was a Serbian strong 5d going on 6d who studied as an insei in Japan (Nihon Ki-in) recently. He rose through the insei groups and took but failed the pro test (Antti Tormanen passed).

Minor point but Antti didn't pass the test. He became pro based on having a good performance during the test and given pro status due to being a foreigner.

Well, the pass mark for foreigners was 50% and top 2 or whatever for natives . I presume Nikola faced the same conditions?

I imagine the native candidates might be angry at having to meet a higher standard.

What is the reason for foreigners to have lower standards? Is this to encourage the development of go in the rest of the world?
And a slightly related question, one I've wondered about before; what sort of level are insei typically when they start? I see a lot of amateur 9D on Tygem, Fox etc. that play against pro's; is it likely that all possible pro's are already at the kind of level before they start studying to try to pass the pro exam?
I have much more modest goals, but have made a commitment to consistently work at the game. I spend 2-4 hours every day playing/studying, and have so far kept that up since the start of this year, so today is day 123, with somewhere around 350-400 hours+ spent playing, solving problems, watching lectures, reviewing, playing through pro games... I can't imagine the talent and effort that is required to make it to the top levels.

In Japan, the weaker insei are probably 1-4 dan (in a solid system, not japanese rank). Antti won nearly all his game in class E and D during his first months as an insei in Japan, and got to the middle of class C. He was 6d EGF at the time.

It still took him something like 4 years to achieve pro status.


I'm pretty sure it's impossible to attain pro level in two years if you're "stuck" at 3k level without studying. But I'll be glad to be proved wrong !

I can't imagine the talent and effort that is required to make it to the top levels.

A common thread shared among human endeavors.

I mean, if you can get to the top level without much talent and effort, you'll have many people to share the top with.

zac wrote:I can't imagine the talent and effort that is required to make it to the top levels.

For what it's worth, in her book Haylee estimates that between the age of 5 and 16 (when she passed the pro exam) she put 21,000 hours into her go studies.

between the age of 5 and 16... she put 21,000 hours into her go studies.

Average: 5.2 hrs/day, 7 days/week, 365.25 days/yr for 11 years.

Now 5+ hrs/day is pretty intense for a 5-yo ( in addition to regular school ).
So let's say 8 hrs/day just for the final 6 years ( no more regular school ; full time insei ). Then it's just under 2 hrs/day (7 days/week) from age 5 to 10, which is more reasonable.

Well, should be similar numbers for other pros ( tennis, golf, piano, ballet, etc. )

Whatever happened to the 10,000-hr experiment person for golf pro ?

Thanks for the breakdown! Yes you're right, if I remember correctly she spent more time on go during the last few years than at the beginning. I'll have to find back my copy to be more precise.

Even if comparisons are always hard, it should give OP an idea of the amount of work he'll have to put in.

EdLee wrote:Whatever happened to the 10,000-hr experiment person for golf pro ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_McLaughlin_(golfer)

He got his handicap down to 5 and stalled there, then had some back issues and seems to have stopped. I don't play golf but it seems like he got to the equivalent of low dan level (quite high percentile among amateurs but in no danger of winning an open amateur tournament).

I also recall someone who was going to try to become world-class in table tennis in a year starting from scratch. It looks like he had similar results.

Dan, Thanks. So, to make pro level means to drop the handicap from 5 to zero.
Sounds remarkably similar to dropping from 5-stones to even.

Shenoute wrote:Thanks for the breakdown! Yes you're right, if I remember correctly she spent more time on go during the last few years than at the beginning. I'll have to find back my copy to be more precise.

Even if comparisons are always hard, it should give OP an idea of the amount of work he'll have to put in.

She goes over it here, I believe; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXc9gFZHo5g

By the current rules of the Nihon Ki-in, foreign insei applicants must be at most 25 years of age at the time of application.

Foreign insei, once they have started as insei, can continue until they are 30 years of age (based on hearsay; I found no official document supporting this).

The biggest hurdle for prospective insei is in securing funds for the time of their studies. The visa that the Nihon Ki-in prepares for insei does not permit working in Japan. The monthly insei tuition fee is about 160 euro.

The required playing strength depends on the applicant's age, and each case is judged separately. A relatively younger applicant, say 16 years old, might get in if they are around 2–3 dan EGF. An applicant nearing the age limit of 25 years, on the other hand, has to be relatively close to pro level (around 6–7 dan EGF).

Source: https://www.nihonkiin.or.jp/english/insei.htm

'In terms of becoming a pro, you could say go is easy: all you have to do is stare at an empty board until drops of blood begin to form on your forehead.'

—That group in atari you let die because a nine-dan was nonchalantly attacking your dragon in the centre via telekinesis.