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Re: direction of play

Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 11:22 am
by RedStick
Chew Terr wrote:
RedStick wrote:Moral: I would shy away from trying to think in terms of direction of play until we are closer to dan level.


Sorry, but I disagree. I think it's good to at least start thinking about this sort of thing early, so that by the time we are dan-level, we will have a firm grasp on the basics of directions. If nothing else, direction of play is easier to understand in some simple situations, like 'Should I pincer' or 'Which way should I block a 3-3 invasion'. Recognizing which side has more development potential will greatly influence the game to come, as well as your capacity for analyzing positions. If you don't consider 'Would thickness in this direction be helpful' then you don't know if a joseki that ends with thickness is fair, either.

(Sorry if I sound overzealous, but direction of play is one of the things I focus on most of all. I'm not great at it, but I hardly think it's a dead end, even at our level. I certainly do L&D too, and all that, but direction makes more sense to my brain than, say, deeper reading aspects or crazy joseki variations. Direction of play is strategy to my sense, whereas local play is tactics).



Yes, you're right. I meant my comment in the context of language in the book like: "Every move is a direction of play problem." That's the type of thinking that sent me on my losing streak. But sensibly thinking occassionally during a game "Ok, not sure what to do, what looks like the proper direction?" or "That play looks like wrong direction, if I keep my cool there should evolve a small lead for myself." can be a useful thought process.

In all likely hood we probably have similar thought processes where you use "Direction language" and I use "Influence(useful?), reduction, 'works with', weak group, etc." language.

Re: direction of play

Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 8:46 pm
by odnihs
Guo Juan's "Controlling Centre" lectures are pretty good for learning the direction of play, although that is centered around middle-game rather than fuseki.

Direction of play is a very hard thing to learn, and you only start to grasp the idea when you get to the low-mid dan level. I'd say for now to just drop that topic for now and work on stuff like attacking and l&d instead.

Re: direction of play

Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 9:44 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
RedStick wrote: "Every move is a direction of play problem."


But...but...they are!

Re: direction of play

Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:24 am
by topazg
odnihs wrote:Direction of play is a very hard thing to learn, and you only start to grasp the idea when you get to the low-mid dan level. I'd say for now to just drop that topic for now and work on stuff like attacking and l&d instead.


Can you really learn to attack effectively without understanding the right direction of play in that given situation? :P

Re: direction of play

Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 5:16 am
by entropi
TominNJ wrote:I don't know if this one is any better but you could try it:

https://www.yutopian.com/yutop/cat?prod ... tegory=PAE


Thanks. At least the title looks promising, I will have a look and try to give some feedback here :)

John Fairbairn wrote:Though I say this with caution, I think I'd advise the OP to forget about direction of play and concentrate on haengma (or suji) instead. They are not the same thing as DoP but haengma does embrace directionality. To put it in a nutshell, haengma requires you to ask iteratively: I've put this stone down - where should the next one go. Now I've got a two-stone group, where should the third one go, and so on. It sounds incredibly simple, and actually it is once you get used to it, but the precepts are often ignored in practice. As an example of one of the precepts, a tight move should usually be followed by an open move and vice versa - e.g. a kosumi or a nobi is followed by a one-space jump or knight's move. If you've had to make two one-space jumps in a row, there is a case to be made that you have got the haengma wrong somewhere, maybe higher up the tree. Another precept (which is worth stressing as this is where the dynamic element comes in - it is more than just pretty shape) is to stay ahead of the opponent's stones.

Where haengma becomes a little difficult is, ironically, in the direction of play, though in a different sense. There are times when your budding shape needs to turn corners. Japanese (and Korean) books quite often remind readers of what needs to be done by using the phrase "three-dimensional". That wouldn't be a phrase that would strike you as unusual in English but it seems rather more common in Japanese (in go) than in English. You might think that's trite, but I suspect that groups in a pro game look three-dimensional more often than in amateur games where groups often look like anorexic supermodels, and that may be one reason it is often easy to spot an amateur game instantly (T Mark might be willing to comment on that, as he has proven his ability to spot the difference with a reasonable degree of accuracy).

(You might want to argue whether it should be 3-D or 2-D, in which case I wouldn't have much patience with you. The Japanese is rittai. The useful metaphor's the thing.)


That's very informative. In my native tongue I would say honey comes out of your keyboard :) Any specific literature suggestion for this haengma thing?

Re: direction of play

Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 5:45 pm
by ethanb
entropi wrote: Any specific literature suggestion for this haengma thing?


Think Like a Pro: Haengma is a little tough but very good. Check out the sample pages and see what you think.

http://www.slateandshell.com/SSYY201.html

The first example for that book is very similar to something that would appear in "Whole Board Thinking in Joseki" by Mr. Yang, but this particular joseki is not in the books because sadly (as I understand it) the original publisher went under before the 4-4 volume was produced. But Slate and Shell bought the leftovers of their stock when the publisher entered bankruptcy and you can still order it from them.

http://www.slateandshell.com/SSYY002.html - 3-4 point, low approach variations
http://www.slateandshell.com/SSYY003.html - 3-4 point, high approach variations

Re: direction of play

Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 1:44 am
by entropi
ethanb wrote:
entropi wrote: Any specific literature suggestion for this haengma thing?


Think Like a Pro: Haengma is a little tough but very good. Check out the sample pages and see what you think.

http://www.slateandshell.com/SSYY201.html

The first example for that book is very similar to something that would appear in "Whole Board Thinking in Joseki" by Mr. Yang, but this particular joseki is not in the books because sadly (as I understand it) the original publisher went under before the 4-4 volume was produced. But Slate and Shell bought the leftovers of their stock when the publisher entered bankruptcy and you can still order it from them.

http://www.slateandshell.com/SSYY002.html - 3-4 point, low approach variations
http://www.slateandshell.com/SSYY003.html - 3-4 point, high approach variations


Thank you!
From the sample pages of the "think like a pro" book it looks indeed like a good problem book.
But on the other hand my first impression is that it gives the solution to a problem and then says that it is good haengma, rather than explaining how the haengma concept would give me the hint to come up with that move.
It looks like solving a shape problem and calling the result "good haengma" instead of "good shape". At my level, this approach does not bring me much further because I don't have yet a feeling of what the concept of haengma is good for. But of course this is just the first impression from the sample pages.

Maybe a more basic book that uses the concept of haengma itself for explaining the correct moves, would be more useful for me at that stage.

Re: direction of play

Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 2:12 am
by tapir
ethanb wrote:
entropi wrote: Any specific literature suggestion for this haengma thing?


Think Like a Pro: Haengma is a little tough but very good. Check out the sample pages and see what you think.

http://www.slateandshell.com/SSYY201.html

The first example for that book is very similar to something that would appear in "Whole Board Thinking in Joseki" by Mr. Yang, but this particular joseki is not in the books because sadly (as I understand it) the original publisher went under before the 4-4 volume was produced. But Slate and Shell bought the leftovers of their stock when the publisher entered bankruptcy and you can still order it from them.

http://www.slateandshell.com/SSYY002.html - 3-4 point, low approach variations
http://www.slateandshell.com/SSYY003.html - 3-4 point, high approach variations


What I learned from "Think Like a Pro: Haengma" is mostly how crucial (and surprisingly unknown to me) the post-joseki moves and possibilities really are and how absurd it is to play joseki without thinking about future potential all the time.

Re: direction of play

Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 9:07 am
by John Fairbairn
I don't have yet a feeling of what the concept of haengma is good for.


There are several possible answers. Here's one. I'll the delete the usual perhaps, maybes, mights and so on. You can flavour the resutling dogmatism to your own taste.

Amateurs, and western amateurs in particular, obsess about the opponent's moves, They want to "punish" this move, want to know what to do about that move. They want to invade the ooponent's area. They don't want to defend their own territory until the last possible moment, and then wonder why it turns out be too late or to cause collateral damage. They want to kill rather than live. Living by killing is the ultimate joy.

There is another way. Haengma. In this tradition, you worry about your own moves. You take the view that if your own moves work together perfectly, you don't have to worry about the opponent. He will either make perfect moves, too, in which case you were never likely to beat him anyway, but at least you'll got a draw. Or he will make bad moves. Since bad moves punish themselves (e.g. by becoming overconcentrated or short of liberties) you will win by having better percentages plays (boring isn't it? Unless you like winning, of course).

In practice you are not likely to be perfect yourself, and there are times when you fall behind and feel obliged to invade. But there is a huge difference between counting then invading to catch up and invading just because you can't stand the opponent having a sizeable territory.

Haengma differs from the usual good shape concept(katachi) that is a perennial favourite with western amateurs until they become disillusioned with it. They become disillusioned because they treat it as a static concept - making pretty shapes such as the table or avoiding bad shapes such as empty triangles. Because suji (flow) has not been covered well in English, they have not added this dynamic element. Haengma is really just katachi + suji. But it comes from a one-stop shop, and so is more attractive to some for that reason. But the presentations of haengma in English seem, on the whole, to be rather fuzzy, and in particular don't identify the two components of shape and flow all that well. They seem to concentrate on the flow aspect, which is possibly because of awareness of the underlying meaning of haeng (moving).

If you want to learn haengma, what you are being taught is "how do I think about developing my stones?" This is fairly advanced.

If you have learned just katachi in the past, you have been taught "how do I make efficient shapes?" You have only learned the most trivial aspect. To make it really useful you need to add suji or go on to a full course of haengma.

If, however, you have trouble with the way hanegma is presented, you may find it useful to break it down and learn katachi and suji separately. Learn first how to make efficient shapes and then learn how to develop them. When you can put the two together, a pro will tell you you've got good haengma or good suji. But you'll know that anyway because you'll find go an awful lot easier.

Specifically, good haengma gives you groups that are robust and safe, that can't be bullied, that are flexible, that can move into other areas easily, that occupy or influence space (i.e. potential territory).

It may sound odd, but I've found that one of the best laboratories for observing haengma is games by Japanese women in fast tournaments. Because of the short time limits they rely heavily on haengma instead of reading. But for the same reason they make mistakes, and you can observe the results. They are strong enough to play good haengma/suji most of the time but not quite strong enough to play in a more free-for-all way. Japanese writers often refer to games by female pros as full of fighting - I don't think that's true as the intent to fight is not really there. I think what they are witnessing is what I have just described - a haengma contest.

PS I was talking to T Mark today about the question of telling pro play from amateur play, which he's good at, on the basis of haengma. I told him I had already mentioned the 3-D aspect of shapes which is stronger in pro play (I believe). He agreed but put more emphasis on what he called "sequences". Pros play complete sequences, amateurs don't. I'm sure he is just stressing the flow/development aspect of suji/haengma, which is natural for a strong player. (I have asked him to consider posting his own views BTW.)

Re: direction of play

Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 9:40 am
by Kirby
Another thing I find useful in understanding haengma is to look at different haengma problems.

Re: direction of play

Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 9:49 am
by Chew Terr
Kirby wrote:Another thing I find useful in understanding haengma is to look at different haengma problems.


From where?

Re: direction of play

Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 9:50 am
by daal
entropi wrote:Any specific literature suggestion for this haengma thing?

For a brief introduction, you can also check out this on Sensei's:

http://senseis.xmp.net/?HaengMaTutorialForBeginners

Re: direction of play

Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 11:38 am
by usagi
Haengma is hiraki in Japanese, and I suppose it goes without saying that it is given a somewhat lighter treatment. It's bad advice to not focus on direction of play. The best book I've read on Direction if play is "Perceiving Direction of Play" by Kobayashi Satoru, and frankly, it is given an A-1 treatment. I would have to say "perceiving the direction of play" is written for low dans (1d, 2d or 3d), but it starts off so simply and beautifully even a 5k would benefit.

Anyways.

-

Re: direction of play

Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 12:15 pm
by John Fairbairn
Haengma is hiraki in Japanese


No it isn't.

Re: direction of play

Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 1:27 pm
by daal
C'mon. Haengma is pretty much the only Korean word to establish itself in the Western go mind. We don't need a Japanese word for it. Anyway, John has already mentioned that the idea of Haengma would need two Japanese words: katachi - good shape, and suji - flow to express it.

the Korean Baduk Association describes haengma as: "A term that considers a placement of a stone as a movement in relation to stones already played." and mentions that this dynamic concept was invented in Korea. Maybe when the Japanese want to talk about haengma they also say "haengma."