Game review request (IGS 17K)

[schawipp]

I still don't understand why is a small move? Doesn't that secure territory more than 2 points?

With you are slightly enlarging an already fully-alive group of your own by maybe ~ 5 points. It does not put any pressure on white, i.e. white has full freedom to continue with whatever he wants (that means, your move was "gote").

Now look at the lower and lower-left area of the board: There's no single b stone, yet. If w gets 1-2 another free moves there, the whole area is turned into a giant white moyo. You might still invade there, but this will be mostly a disadvantageous fight.

Thus, seems a good moment for playing a kakari at e.g. c6 - do you think this would be smaller or bigger than the around 5 points of your ?

[jlt]

I still don't understand why is a small move? Doesn't that secure territory more than 2 points?

(schawipp already answered while I was typing the following paragraph): is small because your group is already quite safe, White needs several moves before threatening anything. You are just adding about 6 points to an already strong group, and you are becoming overconcentrated (too many black stones in a small area).

A guiding principle is that corners are big, so most of the time, approaching a corner (C6, F3) or making a corner enclosure (C14, F17) is a big play. Another possibility is D10 since it interacts loosely with D16 and prevents White from playing there. Or perhaps play around H3 and try to live (this is basically what you did around move 183 but you died because there were already too many white stones; you would have had better chances of success by invading earlier).

Some of these moves are probably not optimal at all, but I am pretty confident that they are better than your move

Any suggestions about middle game play?

After White could have captured a stone (e.g. N18, O17, L18).

gives you bad shape because crossed your keima N14-O16.

is bad because you lost sente. You already have a bamboo joint (L8, L9, N8, N9) so White cannot cut through it.

is a small move because it is gote (White doesn't really need to answer and could take a big point elsewhere).

Move 101: if your idea is to kill the D15 stone or at least to save your C15 stone, then C14 gives you a better shape (whereas the atari at D14 leaves a cutting point at C14).

Move 137 is often bad shape because it invites your opponent to cut your keima.

Move 167: what are you afraid of?

[xoxox]

gives you bad shape because crossed your keima N14-O16.

Yes I know about keima cut, have read about it before. Problem is, it is more difficult to apply these ideas in practical games. Like Go most of these ideas are also abstract, so some of them are understood better only by playing a lot and not by only studying. I am fairly new to game and playing it seriously for about a month or two only so reading and intuition might improve with time.

Thanks all for suggestions and analysis. One more thing: board embedded here is not very mobile device friendly.

Thanks again.

[EdLee]

Hi xoxox,

Can you see why ( , , ) are very slow and small?

Yes, what alternate moves you suggest in tune with [the usual suspects] fuseki?

Quite often in kyu reviews, a move is pointed out as not good ( say, too slow, too small, wrong shape, etc. ), and immediately the person wants to know what are better candidates. This is strictly from my observation ( you may have different experiences ): they never pay attention to why the original move was not good to begin with -- they're much more interested in opening ideas. As a result, they would continue to play the bad moves for a long time -- and not only in the opening, but in every phrase of the game, because they tend to ignore the importance of the fundamentals, the very reasons the original move wasn't good.

In another recent thread, this quote from Mr. Cho chikun came up ( some paraphrasing for my purposes here ):

"there are still those who teach beginners without teaching life and death problems or capture races. They only teach [ the opening ], [ play by intuition ], etc. This is totally wrong. It would be the same as teaching multiplication and division to children who have not even learned addition and subtraction."

[EdLee]

board embedded here is not very mobile device friendly.

I've been using the ancient and tiny iphone(4 & 5) screens for this forum ( including this and previous posts, editing forum diagrams, browsing embedded SGF's like yours ) for some years now.

[xoxox]

Board should atleast have portrait/landscape option. Portrait style with larger controls at bottom could solve lot of troubles related to mobile devices. Ergonomically designed board can save lot of left/right scroll as well as taps, and eventually Emacs pinky type of diseases.

[EdLee]

Emacs pinky type of diseases.

vi guy here.

( But yes, this interface wasn't designed for tiny screens. )

[Uberdude]

For instance, is an armpit hit, this is usually bad.

Yes, this is usually bad but in Chinese fuseki I have seen this move in books, video analysis etc. It might not be so bad here and probably depends upon follow up moves, which I don't think I played very accurately.

This comment stood out to me. Are you saying that because you have seen r9 played in the Chinese opening, you thought it would be good here? But there's already a white stone at q10 which makes a huge difference (and lower right is not a 3-4 like in Chinese opening). The Chinese opening with its characteristic move at r9 doesn't mean the r9 co-ordinate is always a good idea! That's like saying because you once had a nice picnic in a field a year ago the exact same GPS coordinate is a good idea for a picnic now, ignoring the fact it has since been turned into a road and a juggernaut is bearing down on you about to crush you to death (like white q10). The relationship of a stone to nearby ones is far more important that the coordinate (the coordinate does have some unchanging effect in that it describes how far from the edge a position is, and a stone on the 3rd line in isolation has certain characteristics of stability/territory/base-making).

[EdLee]

Hi xoxox,

but in Chinese fuseki I have seen this move in books, video analysis etc.

Follow-up to post 23: did you mean you saw R9 with Q10 ? Or without Q10 ?

In Go discussions, when we say "this move", we usually mean "this move in this local context ( and sometimes in this global context )". So I thought you meant you'd seen R9 with Q10 already in place.

[xoxox]

@Uberdude
Yes, you are right. It was kind of an experimental move, even knowing that it is against all Go commansense. I don't know why I thought for a while and made that counterintuitive move knowing fully well it might not work well.

This probably happened because I was unable to decide whether it was a good move or bad in long run. My follow-up wasn't good and it didn't work well.

Your picnic analogy was pretty accurate but I ended up learning few more things about Go so all in all nice experience, learning from the mistakes.

[xoxox]

@EdLee

Yes, I probably could have seen it without Q10 but some other stone in vicinity of R9. This subtle differences might make a big difference in the long run. It was local, not sure with or without Q10.

[EdLee]

Hi xoxox,

Follow-up to "I've seen this move"...

One of the first corner patterns people encounter:

$$W Variation 1
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 3 X . . . . . , . .
$$ | . . 1 2 . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W Variation 1
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 3 X . . . . . , . .
$$ | . . 1 2 . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +------------------------[/go]

From my observation, quite a few people, having seen the above shape, would play the following hane:

$$W Variation 2
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 3 X . . . . . , . .
$$ | . . 1 2 . O . X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W Variation 2
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 3 X . . . . . , . .
$$ | . . 1 2 . O . X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +------------------------[/go]

When asked why , they'd reply "I've seen this move before..."
But they didn't realize in var 1 is very different from in var 2.
They are not the same move!

Yes, I probably could have seen it without Q10 but some other stone in vicinity of R9.

If you were referring to Chinese opening variations, it's unlikely there were stones near R9 when played R9 ( and, as mentioned, your board was not a Chinese opening situation ). Like the hane example above, it may be educational if you could pinpoint the source ( a book, a video, etc. ), and compare it with your in the real game.

This subtle differences might make a big difference in the long run.

Yes. It's not "subtle"; it's a huge difference. ( Re: picnic analogy )

[Bill Spight]

@Uberdude
Yes, you are right. It was kind of an experimental move, even knowing that it is against all Go commansense. I don't know why I thought for a while and made that counterintuitive move knowing fully well it might not work well.

Let me encourage you to experiment and to try out moves that may go against common sense or how other people play or advise. You have to develop your judgement, which is in the end all you can rely upon. As you point out, learning from mistakes is good.

This probably happened because I was unable to decide whether it was a good move or bad in long run. My follow-up wasn't good and it didn't work well.

You don't actually know whether your follow-up was good or bad. True, your line of play did not work out too well.

Yes, I probably could have seen it without Q10 but some other stone in vicinity of R9. This subtle differences might make a big difference in the long run.

It's not "subtle"; it's a huge difference.

It's good to try things out, to learn from mistakes, and to explain your reasoning. But please understand, your (Edit: xoxox's) opinion is not worth much. Not yet, anyway.