Tan Xiao

[TheCannyOnion]

TheCannyOnion: about 90% of your posts on this forum consist in saying that Japanese players are weak and 5% say that Chinese players are strong. What's the point? If you dislike Japan and want to express that continuously on this forum, I find it sad because one of the things I like in go is that it's an international language that promotes friendship among people from all countries.

If that hypothesis is wrong and you just would like this forum to focus less on Japanese players and more on Chinese players, then we would appreciate that you help reestablish the balance by providing more information about Chinese players.

And 100% of my posts are in English, which must mean it's the only language I speak.

Are you extra-sensitive or what? Could you un-trigger yourself, and if you are still interested, we can have a rational discussion perhaps?

[jlt]

There are two "Ifs" in my post. I don't know if they are true or not, you didn't say if they are (this is your right). I don't know why you think I am extra-sensitive. Is that the part where I say that some behavior is "sad" if some hypothesis is true? Or another part of my message?

[TheCannyOnion]

There are two "Ifs" in my post. I don't know if they are true or not, you didn't say if they are (this is your right). I don't know why you think I am extra-sensitive. Is that the part where I say that some behavior is "sad" if some hypothesis is true? Or another part of my message?

I never expressed that Japanese players are "weak", but merely observed – correctly – that they are weaker on average when compared to Chinese AND South Korean pros. What is it that you object? Was it the perceived frequency (expressed by you in a Trumpian statistic) with which I expressed it? IF so, then tough, since I don't live to please strangers on the net. IF not, then why did you even formulate your original hypothesis that I was unduly prejudiced against Japanese players? I read it as an accusation carefully wrapped in the garb of a disingenuous hypothesis, since your second hypothesis seems to imply, rather grotesquely, that those who diagnose a problem must also be responsible for solving it. If that's your logic, and assuming you are not a medical professional, the next time you realize that you have an ailment, you must surely be obligated to cure yourself. No?

In other words, I think you were in fact triggered and sensitive, which does say a lot more about you than it does me.

Full stop.

[jlt]

What is it that you object? Was it the perceived frequency (expressed by you in a Trumpian statistic) with which I expressed it?

Yes.

What I like to read on this forum: commented pro games, stories around the pro scene, reports on amateur tournaments, people asking and getting comments on their games, people telling how they struggle to make progress (so that I know I am not the only one), etc. In short, I like new information related to go or to go players, professionals or amateurs. Repeating 100 times that Japanese players are weaker than Chinese or Koreans (or repeating 100 times any other fact) is not new information.

You have the right not to "live to please strangers on the net", however this is a forum gathering people having a common interest, and participants should try to make this as enjoyable as possible.

I never said that "those who diagnose a problem must also be responsible for solving it", but I do think that those who diagnose a problem should make reasonable effort to contribute in solving it. I am not a medical professional, but if I have an ailment which is related to diet or lack of exercise, then I will try to improve my diet and exercise more. I will not complain 100 times to non-medical professionals that no one can cure my disease.

You told me to have a rational discussion. I proposed something rational: post more messages containing new content related to go.

Anyway I said what I had to say, I won't bother you anymore. You can forget my post if you don't like it.

[Elom]

However rough jlt's statistics may have been, I doubt there were any suggestions that anyone was being prejudiced against Japanese pros by noting them as not being the strongest, or attempts to say it's inherently negative (no one has done the former, and in the latter one should not mix it up with other posts in this thread that were tired from multiple people saying the similar negative things, not that the specific instance of the statement is something worth complaining about. Please understand)

Not to turn this into a semantic inquiry, but expressing that Japanese players are slightly weaker on average doesn't imply being wrong in way. I don't understand the objection to it.

No one is triggered over any opinion here, it's just how one goes about it may be x10 more important .

[Uberdude]

Shall we talk about Tan Xiao instead of meta-discussions on Iyama Yuta?

[HermanHiddema]

Come on mods, can we just ban TheCannyOnion already? Just another troll, lets get rid of him and get back on topic.

[topazg]

As I apparently still have mod powers, I shall attempt to wear a mod hat without abusing them.

I don't particularly see an inherent issue in holding a very strong view about Japanese professionals being weaker than any others, everyone has a right both to hold it and express it. However, a number of the recent posts are personal criticisms of posters (as individuals rather than just criticising their opinions - calling people triggered/sensitive/etc). Please stick to discussions about Go and Go players rather than fellow posters.

It would also be good if this thread in particular was about the thread subject rather than a different player. Continued posts about meta-discussions of Bob being offended by Kate's Offense at why Iyama is or is not the best or worst player ever will be deleted from this thread.

[WindCaliber]

Maybe it would make more sense to make a single thread on notable news, player appreciation, and whatnot. That is, instead of making individual threads for players that quickly become obsolete.

[John Fairbairn]

As the originator of the thread and a big supporter of the Japanese go scene, I didn't find the onion man's contribution tiresome or off-topic - very much on-topic, fact. He's not trolling, and his acerbic remarks can easily be considered a frustrated reaction to an over-judgemental reaction to his post. He didn't start out trying to be rude.

We have enough trouble trying to get discussions going here without banning someone else. If those who don't like his posts have the time and inclination to count his posts and haven't yet learnt to let their eyes swish over what he says, perhaps they need to re-consider how to spend their coffee breaks.

I can't give him my full approval while he remains anonymous, of course, but for heaven's sake - there are plenty of worse faults on this forum than a bit of repetition. Apart from anonymity, there's thread derailment, lurking and over-modding.

To try to get back on the rails, it's not just about what a few fans here think. In my opening post I made the point that Tan Xiao is not well represented on Google in Chinese compared to some other successful players. I mentioned him because he's just won another title, but there are other players about whom the same point can be made.

To quote some (I hope) indicative figures from doing a search on the name + weiqi (in Chinese) for a few players who floated into my mind, I got hits as follows:

Ke Jie (16 titles): 158,000
Jiang Weijie (6 titles): 54,700
Xie He (6 titles) 45,100
Mi Yuting (9 titles): 38,500
Chen Yaoye (17 titles): 31,000
Gu Zihao (6 titles): 23,300
Gu Lingyi (6 titles): 22,500
Tan Xiao (6 titles): 22,300

Shi Yue (5 titles) scored 288,000 but presumably that's because his characters have a common meaning outside his name.

We see that Chen has the most titles in that list but languishes well down in terms of hits. There is a wide disparity of those with 6 titles. but two whose hauls include international titles (Gu Zihao - Samsung; Tan Xiao - Chunlan).

Since we having been talking in other threads about tournaments and fans' reaction to them, and by implication the extent to which sponsors are influenced by fickle fans, it interests me to know why we have such a wide range of internet hits. I asked about one possibility - Jilin being an fashionable go area compared to say, Shanghai, but I'm far from saying that is either true or is cause-and-effect, and I'm sure there are many other factors - but what?

FWIW CannyOnion (in English) scored 2 hits - some troll

[gowan]

Things seem to have calmed down. For a while I thought I was back on rec.games.go. Maybe others here might remember the flame wars and trolling that took place there.