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could you please review my game?

https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=16383

Page 2 of 2

Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:47 pm
by EdLee
Hi Bill, Thanks. Yea, the pros have also picked up on the 3-4 attach.
The old style slide is now a rare move for the bots.

Re:

Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:43 am
by Joaz Banbeck
EdLee wrote: ...
I see :b1: as almost around damé, thus misplaced.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ ----------------------------------------
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . 1 . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O ? ? . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O , . . . . O O ? X . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Ed,
You've got to keep an eye on that computer of yours. It is cheating. :lol:
If you let it give white an extra stone, and allow it to move one of white's stones, any black play can be made to look bad.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Red circles and blue arrow indicate added/moved stones
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . 1 . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O ? ? . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O , . . . . O W ? X . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . . . . . C . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ {AR O3 O5}[/go]
The question is: does this move look misplaced?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Board with the correct position restored
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . 1 . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O , . . . . . O . X . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . . . . . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Or, assuming that Bill's computer is not slipping extra stones on the board...
Bill Spight wrote:...DL has White respond with a peep from the right side, and after Black connects, with a push/descent, which Black hanes. The result is that the jump becomes dame and Black is pressed for eyes, but the White group on the right side is weak...
Then the question is: does this move look misplaced?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 4 5 . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . 1 3 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O , . . . . . O . X . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . . . . . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: could you please review my game?

Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 11:11 am
by Uberdude
FWIW, LZ 202 thinks high 2 space extension (which in combo with the slide would get you chided in the past) is very slightly better than low, jump not as good as q5 attachment if you want to push the boundary to lower side as that makes a good shape next, unlike the jump with the peep weakness pointed out. But all these moves are ok, pick whichever you are happier with that reduces the chance of making big mistakes which matter in the future.
lz202 jump or extend.PNG
lz202 jump or extend.PNG (828.25 KiB) Viewed 17300 times

Re: could you please review my game?

Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 11:29 am
by Bill Spight
Deep Leela suggests this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . 1 . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 5 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O , . . . . . O 4 X . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . . . . . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: Re:

Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 11:31 am
by Bill Spight
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
EdLee wrote: ...
I see :b1: as almost around damé, thus misplaced.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . 1 . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O ? ? . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O , . . . . O O ? X . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Ed,
You've got to keep an eye on that computer of yours. It is cheating. :lol:
If you let it give white an extra stone, and allow it to move one of white's stones, any black play can be made to look bad.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Red circles and blue arrow indicate added/moved stones
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . 1 . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O ? ? . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O , . . . . O W ? X . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . . . . . C . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ {AR O3 O5}[/go]
The question is: does this move look misplaced?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Board with the correct position restored
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . 1 . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O , . . . . . O . X . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . . . . . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Or, assuming that Bill's computer is not slipping extra stones on the board...
Bill Spight wrote:...DL has White respond with a peep from the right side, and after Black connects, with a push/descent, which Black hanes. The result is that the jump becomes dame and Black is pressed for eyes, but the White group on the right side is weak...
Then the question is: does this move look misplaced?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 4 5 . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . 1 3 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O , . . . . . O . X . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . . . . . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Turns out I misread the board. Deep Leela actually prefers the kosumitsuke for :b3:.

Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 1:50 pm
by EdLee
Hi Joaz,

As mentioned multiple times now, DL is on a browser; I'm not sure which device is doing the playout calculations. It fails to load on an ancient iPad (maybe stylesheets issues), but it works OK on an iphone5. The point is unless you have an ancient device like a first-generation iPad, you can use DL yourself. I added the extra :white: stone for dame, not DL. The mirrored knight's :white: was a typo. Anyway, it seems higher-end LZs like the game move :b11: 2-space low jump or the 2-space high jump slightly (~2%) better than the 1-space jump :bc:, within the margin of error, all playable by humans. But I wouldn't play the 1-space jump :bc:; just my preference.
I managed to do so. :)

It is rated around 3% less than the 2 space extension on the right side, which is close to the margin of error.
Hi Bill, I also figured out a way to get an approx. from DL; DL also shows ~2% lower for the 1-space jump :bc: (~68%) than the game move :b11: (~70%), followed by a :white: peep, yes. A slightly different variation:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 9 1 3 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . B . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O , . . . . 4 O 6 X . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . . . . . O 5 7 O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
Higher-end LZs may give different variations.

LZ 202 has a pretty interface.

Re: could you please review my game?

Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 3:39 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
Thanks for the advice, Ed, but I still feel that I'd be making a deal with the devil.

Re: Re:

Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 6:15 pm
by sorin
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 4 5 . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . 1 3 X 7 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O , . . . . . O . X . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . . . . . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I don't like black 1 in this diagram, I think black at "a" is better.
The reason is that white is strong on the lower side (in fact, all of white's moves have been invested in the lower side so far), so black wants to stay away from white's strength.

The sequence in this diagram shows one way for white to exploit black's indiscretion, by turning black's group into a target to be harassed.
(I saw the other post showing a maybe smarter way for black to respond with a diagonal move instead of 3 here, but this is to keep things simple - in reality, white's best move may not be to directly peep at 2 either).

Also, this being a handicap game, there is extra reason for black to try to keep the game simpler and not create unnecessary targets for white to attack.

Re: could you please review my game?

Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 3:26 am
by Uberdude
sorin wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b 2 4 5 . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . 1 3 X 7 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O , . . c . . O . X . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . . . . . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Is 5 for 6 a good or bad exchange for black? Might be better to directly descend at 7 to not help white build eyeshape, but it's still painful to play a gote move on 2nd line like that. Also turn at b another idea for 5, aiming to develop in the centre and play c shoulder hit later.

Re: could you please review my game?

Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 9:55 am
by sorin
Uberdude wrote:
sorin wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b 2 4 5 . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . 1 3 X 7 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O , . . c . . O . X . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . . . . . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Is 5 for 6 a good or bad exchange for black? Might be better to directly descend at 7 to not help white build eyeshape, but it's still painful to play a gote move on 2nd line like that. Also turn at b another idea for 5, aiming to develop in the centre and play c shoulder hit later.
I like to make the 5-6 exchange,to force white to respond (while later, white may just jump at a if black 5), but I can see why one may also want to play 5 directly at 7. In fact, LZ seems to agree with you.

Anyway, these are small differences we are talking about, I just wanted to point out the high-level consequences of black 1 vs black a, for the black player in a handicap game.

Re: could you please review my game?

Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 10:53 am
by Uberdude
sorin wrote: Anyway, these are small differences we are talking about, I just wanted to point out the high-level consequences of black 1 vs black a, for the black player in a handicap game.
For sure, I agree that extending is good, doubly so in a handicap game.
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