Life In 19x19

hyperpape wrote:

Bill Spight wrote:Now, doesn't the AGA have several thousand members? I would expect that it could afford three or four full time employees. And to pay its tournament directors.

How do you figure? It’s probably been four or more
years since I read an up to date AGA budget, but I think they were pretty small.

Well, when I was in LA I went to a local duplicate bridge club (under the auspices of the American Contract Bridge Association; no gambling) which hosted more than 100 members. It had two or three full time employees. The large clubs had more than that. If the AGA is essentially a volunteer organization, it's because it wants to be one.

I have my complaints about communication. Several years ago, I poked around the website and sent emails about a few small gaps, dead links, etc. I thought about volunteering to maintain some of it, but I never did. So how much can I complain?

spook wrote:What I have seen in other Go organizations, is that sometimes volunteers get too much responsibility. Often a single volunteer is responsible to maintain a website, update a rating list, organizing a tournament, ... Those kind of things happen everywhere. And perhaps that's where Bob's dissapointment comes from.

That has been my experience, as well. In the US, anyway.

spook wrote:What I have seen in other Go organizations, is that sometimes volunteers get too much responsibility.

That may have been the case with the EGF-AGA pro match, still ongoing. The organizers may have included professional go players, but apparently no professional tournament organizers.

Bill Spight wrote:Well, when I was in LA I went to a local duplicate bridge club (under the auspices of the American Contract Bridge Association; no gambling) which hosted more than 100 members. It had two or three full time employees. The large clubs had more than that. If the AGA is essentially a volunteer organization, it's because it wants to be one.

I think the physical club must have very different finances. The last AGA budget I can find quickly was from 2010-2011 (https://www.usgo.org/sites/default/file ... et2011.pdf). Projected income for 2010 was $103,000 (which was missed), for 2011 it was $73000. That's technically enough to hire three minimum wage workers, but that's all, and there are other expenses (admittedly, you can argue that some of the line items are more than they should be, but not enough to change the fundamentals that much).

EGF has a few employees, I think at least 3, who run the European Go Centre in Amstelveen. Peter Zandveld may be one of them. Part of their activities is to make the centre itself account for its maintenance by renting out rooms/halls for events.

Off topic:
I've been president of the national chapter in Belgium. It was always hard to find enough people to do the work, e.g. when organizing the Brussels tournament. I quit after a few years, mostly because I didn't like the duty but also because I started doubting the sense of such a national chapter, especially in Belgium where we don't even have a common language. I doubt nations altogether. Their function seems to evaporate, with the Internet bringing people together beyond the local level.

I do see a lot of sense in continental bodies though because political situations and culture may vary between them.

The AGA currently has a bit more than 2200 members. We're all volunteers, ive been one for quite a while now. Unfortunately we're small enough that most of us do multiple jobs around the org. I havent been on here in a while posting and more time on reddit or facebook. I will have someone local reach out to Bob this weekend. If anyone wants to send complaints about the AGA to me I will escalate them where I can. I cannot speak to anything about the Transatlantic stuff as I was not involved, but I can speak to a lot of other topics.

vash3g wrote:The AGA currently has a bit more than 2200 members. We're all volunteers, ive been one for quite a while now. Unfortunately we're small enough that most of us do multiple jobs around the org. I havent been on here in a while posting and more time on reddit or facebook. I will have someone local reach out to Bob this weekend. If anyone wants to send complaints about the AGA to me I will escalate them where I can. I cannot speak to anything about the Transatlantic stuff as I was not involved, but I can speak to a lot of other topics.

Only 2200 members. I had heard rather more than that, several years ago. I thought that the availability of internet go had brought in a lot of new people. No, that is not enough membership to support professional staff.

Bill Spight wrote:Only 2200 members. I had heard rather more than that, several years ago. I thought that the availability of internet go had brought in a lot of new people. No, that is not enough membership to support professional staff.

We have varied from 2200-2400 in the times Ive seen the stats. There are a few dozen factors we've heard over the years for people staying or leaving the organization. Technology is hard as people dont need to go outside for games and can play anywhere. Face to Face tournaments have been down for years it seems and growing the crowd is tough.

vash3g wrote: Technology is hard as people dont need to go outside for games and can play anywhere.

Yeah, I mean, hey - how else are you going to lag out on time? Face to face tournaments are really bad for that!

Kirby wrote:

vash3g wrote: Technology is hard as people dont need to go outside for games and can play anywhere.

Yeah, I mean, hey - how else are you going to lag out on time? Face to face tournaments are really bad for that!

O Hesus Grande, how much more of this.

From personal experience, I think it's more important to get people to play in a single tournament than to have them commit to club meetings. At least for me, getting to play over the board matches that matter left pretty strong and, more importantly, lasting impressions on me.

Kirby wrote:Yeah, I mean, hey - how else are you going to lag out on time? Face to face tournaments are really bad for that!

I shouldnt talk. I havent been to the local club in a while. Been running City League on Pandanet and other AGA projects have eaten a lot of time. Though Im going to the Maryland Open next weekend and that should be lots of fun!

yakcyll wrote: From personal experience, I think it's more important to get people to play in a single tournament than to have them commit to club meetings. At least for me, getting to play over the board matches that matter left pretty strong and, more importantly, lasting impressions on me.

But beginners cannot play directly in tournaments, they need to get some experience in their clubs first.

And also, people who don't live in dense areas don't have many opportunities during the year to play in tournaments.

jlt wrote:But beginners cannot play directly in tournaments, they need to get some experience in their clubs first.

And also, people who don't live in dense areas don't have many opportunities during the year to play in tournaments.

Anyone who is a member can play in AGA tournaments. It makes it tough on the TD with 20k+ players but the organization likes all of its members to play. We had some people start to code an online ratings application to connect to go servers and help with those who could not make it easily to tournaments but lost them to some real life events.

Yes, I know that everybody can participate in tournaments but beginners may not feel comfortable in doing so, even if they are encouraged. I don't know how the situation is in the US since I live in Europe, but here the median level of participants in competitions is 5k. There are very few competitors with a level below 16k. Personally I didn't feel comfortable participating in a tournament until I reached 15k. I don't care so much about performance, but I didn't want to lose all my games and finish last.