Life In 19x19

Sorry if I ask dumb questions, but: what was the purpose of the EGCC? What kind of events did they organize, and were they different from international events elsewhere in Europe?

jlt wrote:Sorry if I ask dumb questions,

Dumb questions don’t exist, only dumb people, namely those who don't ask questions

but: what was the purpose of the EGCC? What kind of events did they organize, and were they different from international events elsewhere in Europe?

See here http://www.go-centre.nl/Pages/Page.php?P=7

Javaness2 wrote:

HermanHiddema wrote: This is a discussion I have been having with more people recently. It is so hard to find volunteers these days, that it really feels like a cultural shift.

Isn't it just a natural consequence of modern life and the acceleration of the inequalities inevitable in capitalism? On average we have less free time and less money to spend.

From what I observe it's a mixture of modern upbringing, where parents who our not able or willing to devote actual time to educating their children, spoil them instead, creating a culture of entitlement, and the insecurity of the global village with its 7 billion inhabitants swarming about, which tends to paralyze people's community spirit.

John Fairbairn wrote:

Edit: Just after posting the above, I went on to Sensei's Library. This was the main message on its front page:

No changes in the last 3 days.

Seems as if there are plenty of other trees falling in the go forest that we don't hear falling. Yes, Keith, it's still Monday here as well!

I have probably been one of the most - and I fear sometimes the most - prolific admin/editor on SL. In its heighdays I spent hours keeping the place tidy while trying to product quality content. I'm not sure this has been the best spent portion of my lifetime.

This news about the EGCC closing, and the explanation about why this may have happened (organizers not being very concerned with positive cash flow) puts into a different light for me the online debate last year about how expensive the entry fees are at the US Go Congress vs the very accessible ones at the European Go Congresses.

Charging higher fees seems like the wiser thing to do in the end, since it's a sustainable practice, even if not everybody likes that or can afford it.

Javaness2 wrote:

HermanHiddema wrote: This is a discussion I have been having with more people recently. It is so hard to find volunteers these days, that it really feels like a cultural shift.

Isn't it just a natural consequence of modern life and the acceleration of the inequalities inevitable in capitalism? On average we have less free time and less money to spend.

When I compare the go community now to how it was when I started (1988), I get the feeling that we have less free time now, but more money to spend.

Back then, many go players were students or unemployed. Nowadays, many of those found a job in IT and have a fairly good income (in my country at least, The Netherlands). Also, the go community in my country is getting older (average age 50+ in my country), and people's income tends to rise when they get older (in my country at least, especially for more educated people).

sorin wrote:Charging higher fees seems like the wiser thing to do in the end, since it's a sustainable practice, even if not everybody likes that or can afford it.

The phrase tends to be thrown around with some weird abandon, but there's a certain truth to "there's no such thing as a free lunch". IMO, minority hobbies have to be acutely aware of it, and its implications beyond the snappy retort.

Take care.

Strlov wrote:

Javaness2 wrote:The EGF could help co-ordinate activities, but expecting something beyond that is misplaced.

I do not want EGF to do anything "beyond". I just think EGF strategy is misplaced (it is not doing what it should right now).
We say it is for competitive go and that's ok. But... How competitive go in Europe is benefiting the community? I see this as very targeted help on getting particular career for few. And national organizations are doing almost the same, but on lower level.

I love to teach beginners in our local club. Giving some commentaries online - sure. Help in organizing tournaments - yeah.
But, if you would ask me, would I seek for any assistance in national org or EGF to make more o better? The answer is - no. As a player I do not see any value added for myself and other players in area. I see, that there is something going on, but it is so far from every day players, that it's almost irrelevant for community.

John Fairbairn wrote:I've been saying this for many, many years and, to my utter bafflement, don't think I've ever found anyone else to agree with me - so welcome, confrère!

There must be others!

If we want to make the go community flourish in the future, we should focus on getting lots of young people to play. I think the focus should be especially on creating kids clubs in schools. Kids love playing each other in real life, much more than playing on the internet.

I also think that the initiative for such things should come from local go communities, enthousiasts from (what's left of) local go clubs, supported by national go federations. The EGF is just too far away and understaffed to do much in this respect.

sorin wrote:This news about the EGCC closing, and the explanation about why this may have happened (organizers not being very concerned with positive cash flow) puts into a different light for me the online debate last year about how expensive the entry fees are at the US Go Congress vs the very accessible ones at the European Go Congresses.

Charging higher fees seems like the wiser thing to do in the end, since it's a sustainable practice, even if not everybody likes that or can afford it.

Sorin, I wouldn't assume higher fees automatically means it is more sustainable. If the fees are low and do not cover costs and you rely on subsidy from a limited pot of external money then sure that is not sustainable. But if fees are low because costs are low as you hire cheap venues (e.g. university campus) in cheap locations (outskirts, not centre of major cities, or cheap countries) so accommodation for the small handful of pros you invite are cheaper then that's just as healthy as high fees because costs are high because you have expensive venues (fancy hotels in prime locations) with expensive accommodation for the large group of pros you invite. I don't know how accurate this is as a characterisation of EGCs vs USGCs but I think there's some basis on reality. An advantage high fees and higher costs have is if you stick on a 10% margin to create some profit for building reserves then that 10% is more in absolute terms (but still subsidises the same amount of expensive future congresses). A way higher fees could be sustainable is if they include some wages for paid organisers who would keep going when volunteers dry up.

jlt wrote:Sorry if I ask dumb questions, but: what was the purpose of the EGCC? What kind of events did they organize, and were they different from international events elsewhere in Europe?

Some years ago I did online teaching (for individuals and group lectures) as part of the British Go Association's 'Shodan Challenge' and got given the (vacant) role of 'National Trainer'. Apparently part of the duties of this role were liaising with the EGCC about creating teaching materials/programmes but I never reached out to them (I just carried on doing my online teaching) nor heard from anyone there.

Uberdude wrote: Apparently part of the duties of this role were liaising with the EGCC about creating teaching materials/programmes but I never reached out to them (I just carried on doing my online teaching) nor heard from anyone there.

Before the Internet came about, there was a purpose for scaling up from the local to the international level via national and continental bodies. With the Internet being today the major environment for playing and studying Go, we need to review the raison d'être of such bodies.

In Belgium for example, not long after my presidency, the main language changed from mutual French-Dutch to English, following the decreasing mastery of the other national language. That to me was an alarm signal for the reason of the body's existence, if its cultural carrier already coincided with the world's lingua franca.

In our neighbouring countries, the Netherlands and France, the national magazines and websites at least are still maintained in the national language. Which makes me think this is one logical level up: language. As far as I'm concerned, the Belgian Federation should disband and regroup at either side of the language barrier. And that goes for Belgium as a whole, but that's more complicated.

What could unity of language be useful for? I see one major reason and one minor reason. The minor one is to develop a conceptual language using the subtleties the language has to offer. For example, the Dutch use "voorhand" (for-hand) and "nahand" (after-hand) for sente and gote, while the Flemish stick with the Japanese terms. The major one is developing teaching material for children, who don't have the command of English adult go players have.

The next level is Europe. And again, the questions we can raise about the EGF are applicable to the political entity - which doesn't find itself short of questioning today. What's the sense of the EGF? A cultural unit? Comparable economies? If we only look at Go, we can see this is not true. Go is taken seriously in Eastern Europe, where the bulk of the home grown and Asia grown professionals reside. These players could probably economize by restricting their real life tournaments to Eastern Europe.

I don't know much about the EGF today. I remember from my tenure as BGF-FBG president almost twenty years ago it was mostly politics - with that awful situation in Italy where I was asked for support from Belgium.

With the little knowledge I have, I don't see the point. Professional Go is already in decline in Asia, so why breed our own? Let aspiring players go to Asia, like they have always done, to become professionals. There is no professional economy in Europe, apart from it being subsidized by the average player's money.

Regroup at the language/cultural level for educational purposes. Scale up to the European level to have a common gateway to Asia. Maybe keep the Congress, but think about making it a professional organization and holding it in a central place, always.

Just thinking out loud.

http://www.go-centre.nl/Pages/Page.php?P=7 wrote:For a healthy financial exploitation of the EGCC it was necessary to rent halls out for other purposes. Currently many mind sport clubs (such as chess, checkers and bridge) meet at the Go centre. Moreover, in order to emphasise the cultural aspect of the center we host several Japanese cultural activities, like painting and flower arrangement.

Uberdude wrote:Apparently part of the duties of this role were liaising with the EGCC about creating teaching materials/programmes but I never reached out to them (I just carried on doing my online teaching) nor heard from anyone there.

So the EGCC never had enough go-related activities to justify its existence. This doesn't surprise me.

Knotwilg wrote:What's the sense of the EGF?

• Organize the go congress
• Organize European championships (pro qualification, EGC, EYGC, EWGC, pairgo...)
• Select European representatives in international competitions
• Develop partnership with other go organizations (like the agreement between EGF and CEGO)

With the little knowledge I have, I don't see the point. Professional Go is already in decline in Asia, so why breed our own? Let aspiring players go to Asia, like they have always done, to become professionals. There is no professional economy in Europe, apart from it being subsidized by the average player's money.

Current European pros are of the level of low-rated asian professionals. A few high dan amateurs already make a living with teaching go. So why deny them the possibility to get pro status?

jlt wrote:

Knotwilg wrote:What's the sense of the EGF?

• Organize the go congress
• Organize European championships (pro qualification, EGC, EYGC, EWGC, pairgo...)
• Select European representatives in international competitions
• Develop partnership with other go organizations (like the agreement between EGF and CEGO)

Of course, once it exists, it has a purpose. What I mean is, what's the advantage of scaling up to the European level and why exactly that level (and not, for example, the European Union, or Western/Eastern Europe, or conversely the whole "western" world).

jlt wrote:

With the little knowledge I have, I don't see the point. Professional Go is already in decline in Asia, so why breed our own? Let aspiring players go to Asia, like they have always done, to become professionals. There is no professional economy in Europe, apart from it being subsidized by the average player's money.

Current European pros are of the level of low-rated asian professionals. A few high dan amateurs already make a living with teaching go. So why deny them the possibility to get pro status?

I don't deny anyone the status of being a pro teacher. I can't: it's a factual matter. And if people make a living playing go, which is feasible in Asia, I can't deny them either. What I question is that we select a few high level players in Europe to get professional status and give them a fee, which is subsidized by membership fees. It might be a good idea, but it's not backed up by a real economy, so it's a kind of investment. Where there's investment, there is risk. In this case the risk is that the flow of money from the members to the subsidized pros would eventually dry up and this may be hastened by that very flow.

What are these subsidized pros giving back to the community that sponsors them? It's a genuine question, I'm not very involved these days. And if there's a subliminal blame in this message, it doesn't go to those pros, whom I don't blame for their ambitions and grabbing any opportunity to make Go their livelihood, rather to the EGF, whose existence and functioning I do question.

Knotwilg wrote:
With the little knowledge I have, I don't see the point. Professional Go is already in decline in Asia, so why breed our own? Let aspiring players go to Asia, like they have always done, to become professionals. There is no professional economy in Europe, apart from it being subsidized by the average player's money.

The Go pro economy in Asia is also based on amateur players paying for them, directly or indirectly.
The fact that certified pros exist is supposed to boost the Go popularity, not to hurt it.

sorin wrote:The Go pro economy in Asia is also based on amateur players paying for them, directly or indirectly.
The fact that certified pros exist is supposed to boost the Go popularity, not to hurt it.

But that's the question, isn't it? Is it helping or hurting?

That's the question that Knotwilg is asking (and myself as well). We are using (at least some of the) money from our membership fees on these pros, and what benefit are we seeing from it?

As a recently renewed AGA member, I've been thinking about this a little more. What am I getting out of it? I read the E-Journal some times, I have some "nationalistic" pride that we have US pros (well... pride is debatable currently, but I don't want to get into that here), but what else? I'm part of a now defunct/failed AGA Chapter/Club, I don't get to the Go Congress (too expensive - time/vacation, flying, entrance fees, etc.), and I'm geographically separated from other clubs and AGA activities.

So could those fees be going to better use? Better support of clubs? Better support of kicking off youth clubs in schools? Or is that just more places for less money to be sent? And are these pros doing a good job of supporting and bringing up popularity? I don't know the answer.

Either way, it's sad to see something like the EGCC shut down as it's just another reminder of the declining numbers we're seeing across the board. We need a new Hikaru No Go to kick off another round of youth players! I'll admit watching that during college was what got me into this whole mess in the first place.