To add to what explo said, this is very bad for white to tenuki. It does not threaten to kill the top-left corner (no move does) and black gets so much in sente...
$$cmove 50 b:1 w:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X O . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X y y . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X y y X X X X . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O X y y y W W X O O X X y y y y y y | $$ | . . X y y y 3 1 O 2 . O 5 y y y y y y | $$ | . . . y y y . . 6 . 4 . . . . y y y y | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$cmove 50 b:1 w:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X O . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X y y . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X y y X X X X . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O X y y y W W X O O X X y y y y y y | $$ | . . X y y y 3 1 O 2 . O 5 y y y y y y | $$ | . . . y y y . . 6 . 4 . . . . y y y y | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
The one thing I think these two players need to learn the most is to keep your groups healthy. Healthy does not equal alive. Healthy means your group cannot get pushed all over to the benefit of your opponent. But both players are currently taking big plays before urgent plays. If they were to stop doing this and focus on the weak groups they might improve by two stones.
Good point. It is a very apparent problem among this 6-9 kyu level.
The mindset is that big points are so easy to tell that they are big, these other moves require some reading and effort to find.
Black needs to reply directly in the corner for the same reasons, he is sure that he can live but he's giving W a great position to strengthen himself and take profit.
Re: Malkovich #20 - Perception vs xDragon
Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 12:24 am
by schultz
Lute wrote:
Good point. It is a very apparent problem among this 6-9 kyu level.
The mindset is that big points are so easy to tell that they are big, these other moves require some reading and effort to find.
I find myself pretty much right in this range, and definitely one of the biggest problems I have.
Still, I was surprised to see xDragon not take advantage of whites tenuki to essentially do what explo laid out. Did he also miss it? Maybe I've had this pulled on me too many times in the past.
Re: Malkovich #20 - Perception vs xDragon
Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 12:00 pm
by Perception
Sorry I haven't made a move in the past few days. I've got work to do on a project for school and I also have a final coming up for my psychology class. I'll try to find time sometime this week to make a move though.
Re: Malkovich #20 - Perception vs xDragon
Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 1:38 pm
by Perception
$$cmove 52 b:1 w:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X O . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . W . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . X X X X . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O X . . . O O X O O X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$cmove 52 b:1 w:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X O . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . W . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . X X X X . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O X . . . O O X O O X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I don't know this move might be stupid but I feel like an invasion would be too much. Playing closer to his wall feels like it would be too easy for him to cut the stone off, then I'd have to worry about it and my stones above.
The capping play here might give him more than I should be giving him but I'm not really sure. It feels safer and it reduces his influence. If he tries to cut it off from the top it will probably result in a fight, if he's more defensive I'll be able to build up more.
I'd like to kill his stone in the top right corner but without more support I don't know if I can do that yet.
I haven't had that much time to think about this even though it's been a long time since the last move so hopefully this isn't a big mistake.
Sorry for taking so long but I've been kind of busy. I've almost finished my project and my psychology final is a couple days away so I'll have more free time after that's all done.
Re: Malkovich #20 - Perception vs xDragon
Posted: Tue May 04, 2010 2:18 pm
by Aphelion
xDragon wrote:
well, im pretty sure i can still tenuki and live in there, so im going to take a big point, and it still puts a bit of pressure on w. im starting to look at my top left group and find a way to defend if i need it.
This to me sums up the biggest problem with both players so far. Just because you "can" tenuki, doesn't mean you should. If tenuking means you get sealed up to 2 measly points while the opponent gets insane thickness, then you probably "cannot" tenuki.
For me as a spectator its also rather frustrating to watch. I think if you played a stone, that means you had a thought, a purpose there, and you owe it to yourself to demonstrate and continue with that purpose. If your just skipping around the board without regard for your original intent, then you can't really formulate any long term strategy. In a sense I feel like you have an "obligation" to your stones, and not fulfilling that is rather irresponsible.
Re: Malkovich #20 - Perception vs xDragon
Posted: Tue May 04, 2010 3:22 pm
by Solomon
I think the last move White made was a bit premature. I think the simple move here is best. Note that this move also plays a large role in nullifying some of the central influence, like what White wanted, but is more "natural". It also makes the invasion around M17 more difficult and puts severe pressure on Q16, so it's a 3-in-1 move:
$$cmove 52 b:1 w:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X O . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . W . . . . . | $$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . X X X X . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O X . . . O O X O O X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . a O . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$cmove 53 b:1 w:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . 6 . . | $$ | . . . O X O . . . . . . . O 4 . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . O . . 2 1 . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . 3 . 5 . . . | $$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . X X X X . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O X . . . O O X O O X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
his side doesnt look that big as it can still be reduced quite a bit, and its pretty flat anyway, and im building nicely on the side with those 2 white stones looking sad
Re: Malkovich #20 - Perception vs xDragon
Posted: Tue May 04, 2010 5:04 pm
by Perception
$$cmove 54 b:1 w:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X O . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . O . . W X . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . X X X X . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O X . . . O O X O O X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X O . . . . . . 4 O 1 . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . O . . W X 3 X . . . | $$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . | $$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . X X X X . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O X . . . O O X O O X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I think I'll probably get a good result here. If he runs I'll be able to build on both sides. If he gets sealed in he'll live small and I'll have strength on the outside. I've never seen this in any of my games so I'm not sure how it will go but it seems good for me.
$$c I'd like to be able to play around the marked point later when I'm stronger above $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X O . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . O . . W X . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . o . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . X X X X . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O X . . . O O X O O X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$cmove 56-58 b:1 w:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X O . . . . . . . O O . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . O . . O X . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . W . O . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . X X X X . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O X . . . O O X O O X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I don't think black could have really played differently here, if he got cut in two there he would have been in trouble.
If he tries to wedge and cut I don't think that works out for him. I have some ideas where it could go but I really don't know and I'd rather not make random guesses. If anyone wants me to post some of them though I can.
edit: Decided to add one of the possibilities I thought of
$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X O . . . . . . . O O . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . O . . O X . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . X 3 X . . . | $$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . 6 W 1 O . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . 5 2 4 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . X X X X . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O X . . . O O X O O X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$cmove 59 b:1 w:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X O . . . . . . . O O . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . O . . O X . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . B X . X . . . | $$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . O . O . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . X X X X . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O X . . . O O X O O X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
hmm that move seems bad to me. its like its inviting me to split his groups. i dont tihnk he can cut me but thats going to make me weak as well...so im looking for an attack on the right side
Re: Malkovich #20 - Perception vs xDragon
Posted: Tue May 04, 2010 6:32 pm
by Perception
$$cmove 60 b:1 w:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X O . . . . . . . O O . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . O . W O X . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . X X . X . . . | $$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . O . O . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . X X X X . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O X . . . O O X O O X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$cmove 60 b:1 w:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X O . . . . . . . O O . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . O . W O X . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . X X . X . . . | $$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . O . O . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . X X X X . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O X . . . O O X O O X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I thought about playing M15 here but it leaves cutting points and doesn't gain much for me or take much from black so I just extended to M16 because it's safer.
$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X O . . . . . . . O O . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . O . W O X . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . X X 3 X . . . | $$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . 7 O 1 O . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . 5 2 4 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . X X X X . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O X . . . O O X O O X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$cmove 62 b:1 w:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X O . . . . . . . O O . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . O . O O X . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . X X . X . . . | $$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . O W O . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . X X X X . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O X . . . O O X O O X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Unfortunately I failed to consider this. Not much choice other than connecting. I should still be fine though. More after he makes his next move since I just have to connect for now.
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