Life In 19x19

Uberdude wrote:All my moves are perfect, just some are in the wrong order

unfortunately we understand this later

Well that's a question.

Has any human or bot in history ever played a 19x19 game that reached a final position that would have also been reachable by a sequence of perfect score-maximizing moves? (throw out resignations and timeouts, only use scored games). Obviously only games that reached the perfect on-the-board score, whatever it happens to be (+7 for black?) would be in the running to begin with at all.

If you cut off play at the point of no useful moves left and take those as the final positions (don't allow Chinese rules filling in all your territory with stones until it's only 2 eyes left, which some bots may do, and which then mostly just requires that your *territory boundaries* match that of an optimal game, rather than the actual shapes), I'd guess very likely no. But I'm not totally sure, without thinking about it more.

yes, from that point of view. but with "absolute mind" anyone can play. and then the games are short enough!

lightvector wrote:Well that's a question.

Has any human or bot in history ever played a 19x19 game that reached a final position that would have also been reachable by a sequence of perfect score-maximizing moves? (throw out resignations and timeouts, only use scored games).

Well, if the chance of doing so is 1 in 1,000,000, then you need around 7,000,000 games to have odds of at least 1000:1 that at least one of those games has done so. OC, that is assuming that the games are independent, which they are not. I don't know about throwing out resignations, since in the published AlphaGo self play games, AlphaGo often resigned near the end when perfect play would have yielded a loss of only ½ pt. But anyway, given the many millions of self-play games by top bots at a reasonable komi, I think that there is a good chance that at least one of those games fits the bill. Which one it is, OC, is another question.

I did not find where it came from:
viewtopic.php?p=255887#p255887
It would be interesting to see!

PS if there is a base of all the "ideal" moves for 7x7, it could be compared with a KataGo. interesting!

Bill Spight wrote:

Dragon wrote:Imagine that 19x19 is solved. What do you think, KataGo (the best network, by default) makes the best move 1 time out of 5? out of 10? maybe a difficult question, but your opinion is interesting

Well, if 19x19 go is solved, how was it solved? Surely by the best network...

Isn't this a step too far? How would any net "solve" Go? I thought that the magic of nets is that they are able to play as strongly as they can despite (because?) being non-deterministic. So how will you ever be able to determine that you have solved Go if you are using a net?

I meant to imagine, assume that go 19x19 solved

ez4u wrote:

Bill Spight wrote:

Dragon wrote:Imagine that 19x19 is solved. What do you think, KataGo (the best network, by default) makes the best move 1 time out of 5? out of 10? maybe a difficult question, but your opinion is interesting

Well, if 19x19 go is solved, how was it solved? Surely by the best network...

Isn't this a step too far? How would any net "solve" Go? I thought that the magic of nets is that they are able to play as strongly as they can despite (because?) being non-deterministic. So how will you ever be able to determine that you have solved Go if you are using a net?

I assumed that by "best network" Dragon meant the best program. I guess I should have said, "best program", myself.

What shape future programs will take, who knows? I doubt if 19x19 go will ever be solved, anyway. However, if it is, and however it may be solved, the solution can be checked with a weaker program than that solved it.

I believe that go can be resolved. and not only 19x19. modern programs learn the "network". neural network (?). If someone comes up with a program that will learn and change themselves! then I’m pretty sure that after a while she will solve go! and provide a solution and evidence

KataGo - first place!
http://www.yss-aya.com/cgos/19x19/standings.html
http://www.yss-aya.com/cgos/13x13/standings.html
http://www.yss-aya.com/cgos/9x9/standings.html

Finally got round to installing the new version, after genconfig it's twice as fast as before (probably I didn't tune / adjust numthreads before), nice!

Can someone please hint me - how can I play it 13x13 or 9x9 - I'm using Sabaki. Different command line and obviously different neural net files? Thx

Have you tried just changing the board size in sabaki?

KataGo uses one neural net for all sizes.

lightvector wrote:Have you tried just changing the board size in sabaki?
KataGo uses one neural net for all sizes.

I have tried meanwhile, oh, I was not expecting it to be that simple - thank you

Uberdude wrote:Finally got round to installing the new version, after genconfig it's twice as fast as before (probably I didn't tune / adjust numthreads before), nice!

i dont know if its a coincidence, but the 40b speed has improved alot on the webapp version too!
https://katago-gui.herokuapp.com/static ... obile.html
For me, this means I can play a quick game anytime on my eink ereader/real board