Route or route?

[John Fairbairn]

People interested in US speech might find a lot of information in the book American Voices by Walt Wolfram and Ben Ward : https://smile.amazon.com/American-Voice ... 618&sr=8-7

This wasn't available on UK Amazon - pity - but it did remind me I could use YouTube (doesn't matter how many times it happens, but I never think of using the internet unless I am reminded to). And what I found there amazed me. There was one video that illustrated accents for every US State. I didn't even the slightest problem with ANY of them, and I'm 75% deaf. I rarely watch tv so I'm not exposed to American speech all that much, and I've only been to about half of the states in person. So why can I cope with their accents and they can't cope with British accents?

I don't have any special gifts. I think most Brits would have a similar take on it to me. But many Brits do have problems with other Brits.

My first thought on this is that all Americans are speaking the same language, and just have different accents and, especially, intonation. But in Britain there is actually a divide between two languages: a group dominated by Old Northumbrian, which covered an area from Scotland down to central England, and a group dominated by Mercian, which covered the extreme south. They were separate languages because they had separate grammars. Despite atrophy over time, they have strong residues, which means northern speech differs not just in accent or intonation but also in grammar, idiom and vocabulary.

There are also some surprising influences from Celtic languages on northern speech. For example, I don't normally use the word movie. I write film. But I say fillum. This insertion of an extra vowel applies to many similar words. It comes from Gaelic. The use of hard and soft consonants that will be familiar to some from Russian (and quite a few other languages) is a strong feature of Gaelic and crops up in the speech of non-Gaelic people. E.g. I say (when not speaking "proper" English) fyess for face. There are also some word-order differences from Gaelic. I personally am not familiar with contributions from Welsh, but I know there are some. So all in all, maybe British people have more on their plate when dealing with other Brits.

These two strains of language were undoubtedly taken to America, but my guess is that people from mixed origins moved round there more freely and widely, and so the atrophy developed at a faster pace.

There may be some cultural differences, too. People, especially children, like to differentiate themselves. American children don't wear a school children and can be as different in dress as they like (or at least that is my impression). British (and Commonwealth) children have to wear school uniforms. Maybe they like to differentiate themselves through language????

[gowan]

There may be some cultural differences, too. People, especially children, like to differentiate themselves. American children don't wear a school children and can be as different in dress as they like (or at least that is my impression). British (and Commonwealth) children have to wear school uniforms. Maybe they like to differentiate themselves through language????

Dress is certainly a way for people in the US to differentiate themselves. I know people who want their children in (private) school to wear uniform because it removes the economic class shown by how people dress. For children in pubic school there is a strong tendency to wear the same kind of clothes, even though the children have freedom to dress however they want. Usually this is driven by sport shoes, team logos, TV characters, entertainers, etc.

[Bill Spight]

My first thought on this is that all Americans are speaking the same language, and just have different accents and, especially, intonation.

That could well be. A few years ago I ran across some 19th century writings where the authors intended to indicate provincial speech. They were all recognizable as present day Southern twang. Even in places like Pennsylvania. I suspect that the Southern drawl, which my family spoke, is a more recent development. For instance, I know that Southern Black speech at that time sounded pretty much like Southern White speech, despite grammatical differences. In the Uncle Remus tale of the Tar Baby, Br'er Rabbit hits the Tar Baby "tuck side er de haid." (As I recall. I used to have a copy.) That sounds nothing like the Southern drawl of today. It's not exactly the modern Southern twang, either, but "haid" is closer to the twang than the drawl. The "f" in "of" is dropped in both Southern dialects, but the Pirate's R is more often retained in the twang. The "de" is recognizably Black, probably from the lack of the English "th" sound in West Africa.

I suspect also that Abraham Lincoln spoke with the twang of his neighbors in Kaintuck (Kentucky). I doubt if he dropped any consonants in the Gettysburg Address, however.

So it may well be this dialect that spread West in the 19th century, which is why Americans sound so much alike to you.

Edit: BTW, if you watch some American fillums of the 1930s and 40s -- Claire Booth Luce's "The Women" comes to mind -- you can hear an American Anglophile social dialect that has since disappeared, but was taken to indicate culture in the speaker.

Edit2: Also "It" (1927) with Clara Bow. The woman who espouses her theory of "It" definitely uses that accent. Not that I recommend this movie, but I do recommend "The Women".

[mhlepore]

When we were kids, we delivered newspapers on bikes, which I have only ever heard referred to as a having a paper rowt. In all other contexts, I hear both pronunciations used regularly.

I grew up in the Pacific Northwest, for what it's worth.

[John Fairbairn]

Pirate's R

I've never heard this phrase but I assume it refers to the "ooo arrr" sound we make when imitating pirates. It would be interesting to know why we make that R association with pirates on both sides of the Pond. How do other languages imitate pirtaes?

When we were kids, we delivered newspapers on bikes, which I have only ever heard referred to as a having a paper rowt.

We call that a paper round. But the real difference seems to be that we actually got off our bikes and delivered the papers - put them through the letter box. In America, however, it seems to be a daily affirmation of the American right to bear arms and guided missiles

(Maybe younger people here need to be told what a newspaper is....)

[Bill Spight]

Pirate's R

I've never heard this phrase but I assume it refers to the "ooo arrr" sound we make when imitating pirates. It would be interesting to know why we make that R association with pirates on both sides of the Pond. How do other languages imitate pirtaes?

From what I have read it comes from the accent adopted by actor Robert Newton when he played Long John Silver and Blackbeard in film and TV in the 1950s. Apparently he exaggerated his own West Country British accent. Both the historical Blackbeard and the fictional Long John Silver were from that area.

[John Fairbairn]

From what I have read it comes from the accent adopted by actor Robert Newton when he played Long John Silver and Blackbeard in film and TV in the 1950s. Apparently he exaggerated his own West Country British accent. Both the historical Blackbeard and the fictional Long John Silver were from that area.

Now that's interesting! And as it happens, there was a new episode of a popular programme on British tv this week (Secret Scotland, with Susan Calman - highly recommended) in which the real inspiration of Treasure Island was revealed. I believe one or more Caribbean islands claim the distinction but now Edinburgh claims it. The tiny isle of Fidra in the Firth of Forth was the Scottish Alcatraz (but with an even grimmer prison, apparently). I'd half suspect this as a piece of cultural re-appropriation on behalf of the tourist industry, except that the island is now a bird sanctuary. And Stevenson was, after all, an Edinburgh man.

I mentioned Kevin Hughes in a previous post. He made a nice and true observation. To most Scots if you are from, say, Glasgow, Dundee, Aberdeen, or Inverness you are called a Glaswegian, Dundonian, Aberdonian or Invernessian. But if you are from Edinburgh you are a "**** fae Edinburgh" (fae = from). To be fair, most people in Edinburgh don't like the "official" term Edinburghers because it descends too easily into Edinbuggers - not to mention the fast-food connotations. I think their favoured term might be "NOT Glaswegians."

[Marathon]

I say "rowt". My first 10 years were in Minnesota, then I spent over a decade in Pennsylvania.

I don't remember where I read it, but I was reading something about networking. The author said the network device is pronounced "root-er". A "rowt-er" is a woodworking tool, he said. I disagreed. A "root-er" is a fan cheering a team at a sporting event, or a device for clearing drain lines.

[John Fairbairn]

It's got little more entangled.

The word keeps coming up on Chicago PD and a typical usage is "en route" which (so far) has always been pronounced "on rowt", which seems a bit illogical to me. If you are trying to sound French by saying "on", you should continue in the same vein and say "root".

As to "router", over here I have only ever heard root-er, even among those misguided souls who try to ape Americans (why????) and say things like "a to zee" instead of "a to zed" or mix up "bring " and take".

But another either/or came up last night in the same programme (yes, programme) and that was when an all-American cop said "towards" instead of "toward". That's not the first time I've heard that, and the -wards words do have an extra later of grammatical complexity, which I don't think we need to go into.

A slightly different example (same programme) is that the cops are now often referring to themselves as "coppers", which seems to be the standard British now, although when I was young "bobbie" was the usual term, and is still heard. I have no recollection of ever hearing "coopers" from US mouths before, and is the sort of thing I'd notice.

Among various possible explanations, two dominate for me.

One is that Americans are now hearing more British speech now, either through films, tv or travel, and are picking up favourites. The other is that actors who I assume are American are actually British, and despite their skills with accents, certain ingrained speech habits still filter through.

[pwaldron]

From Canada here. My wife and I were chatting about this yesterday. We realized that we pronounce route differently depending on the part of speech: "root" as a noun (except for an Internet rowter) but "rout" as a verb.

[Knotwilg]

In Belgium, where my half speaks Dutch (the language of the Netherlands, of course), most tech words are borrowed from English.
Now, "o-u" in Dutch is a diphtong much like "ow" but in Belgian Dutch it's a flat sound, more like "arrrr" or "ohh". You would then expect we say "rowter" or "rarrter" but no, we say "rooter". That's because "a route" in Dutch is "een route" which we have borrowed from French. And there the sound is an oo. But then again, Belgian Dutch (Flemish, you know) speakers who are working in tech business, or young people altogether, say "rowter".

Clear?

[Marathon]

When I was a kid, watching Saturday morning cartoons, it wasn't unusual for a bad guy to refer to police as "copper(s)".

I suspect Americans started using the word "cop" without the negative connotation because it was easier than "police officer" when "Patrolman" or "Policeman" were being panned for being sexist.

[ez4u]

I do not know the full history of the use of "copper" for police in the U.S. but it famously goes back to at least 1931. Public Enemy

[Bill Spight]

From the etymology dictionary ( https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=cop )

cop (n.)

"policeman," 1859, abbreviation (said to be originally thieves' slang) of earlier copper (n.2), which is attested from 1846, agent noun from cop (v.) "to capture or arrest as a prisoner."

[gowan]

It's got little more entangled.

The word keeps coming up on Chicago PD and a typical usage is "en route" which (so far) has always been pronounced "on rowt", which seems a bit illogical to me. If you are trying to sound French by saying "on", you should continue in the same vein and say "root".

As to "router", over here I have only ever heard root-er, even among those misguided souls who try to ape Americans (why????) and say things like "a to zee" instead of "a to zed" or mix up "bring " and take".

But another either/or came up last night in the same programme (yes, programme) and that was when an all-American cop said "towards" instead of "toward". That's not the first time I've heard that, and the -wards words do have an extra later of grammatical complexity, which I don't think we need to go into.

A slightly different example (same programme) is that the cops are now often referring to themselves as "coppers", which seems to be the standard British now, although when I was young "bobbie" was the usual term, and is still heard. I have no recollection of ever hearing "coopers" from US mouths before, and is the sort of thing I'd notice.

Among various possible explanations, two dominate for me.

One is that Americans are now hearing more British speech now, either through films, tv or travel, and are picking up favourites. The other is that actors who I assume are American are actually British, and despite their skills with accents, certain ingrained speech habits still filter through.

Copper was certainly used in American films before the second world war. In particular James Cagney used the term: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ssdsftKZbcc