Slonection

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Knotwilg
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Re: Slonection

Post by Knotwilg »

gennan wrote:=
It looks like a, c and d are the main contestants in other people's replies, while b and e are considered to be too slow. I feel the same, my order of preference being d, c, a, e, b.

But in the current AI era, I would definitely consider f and g as well. Didn't you consider those?
I might play f, and if white responds in a passive way, continue with g.
I didn't.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Move F
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . g . . . b . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . e . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . d 1 2 4 0 8 . , . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . O 3 5 6 9 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Move G is met with a top left corner reinforcement. Then Black turns to the bottom again.
Last edited by Knotwilg on Thu Feb 11, 2021 2:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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jlt
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Re: Slonection

Post by jlt »

@Knotwilg: there is no :b9: and two :w10: on your diagram. (Edit: the diagram has been corrected.)
Last edited by jlt on Thu Feb 11, 2021 2:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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SoDesuNe
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Re: Slonection

Post by SoDesuNe »

Bill Spight wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm37 Black to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . a f . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . M . . . . . . . b . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . W . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . e . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . g . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . d , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . O . c . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
In such positions, this late in the opening, I now ask myself, Where would Shusai play?

Before the AI era, I would probably have chosen d, because c invites the jump to g, which looks too good for White. But I don't think that that would have bothered Shusai. So c is now my top choice.
I can't speak for Shusai but the c-g-exchange is exactly my reasoning why I don't want to play c. I consider White's gain as more promising than Black's due to Black's corner aji (maybe c ends up being too close to Black's corner position later on?).

I would have played d in this position. Funnily enough my first choice in the top left would have been where X marks the spot. But my joseki knowledge is pretty non-existent nowadays so I might miss a continuation where White uses the attachment to make the extension a good move (then again it still faces Black's strong position on the right...).
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gennan
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Re: Slonection

Post by gennan »

Knotwilg wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Move F
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . g . . . b . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . e . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . d 1 2 4 0 8 . , . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . O 3 5 6 9 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Move G is met with a top left corner reinforcement. Then Black turns to the bottom again.
I would not crosscut. I think that is a bit too much.
I would be thinking of a counter-hane, but the ladders towards F7 are bad for black, so perhaps the attachment at K4 is unreasonable.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 9 . . . b . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . e . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . 7 5 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . 8 4 1 2 . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . 3 O 6 . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
If black cannot get more than that, then white is probably happy with those exchanges on the lower side.
So maybe black should hold back a bit and play the shoulder hit at J4 instead of K4 after all.
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gennan
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Re: Slonection

Post by gennan »

SoDesuNe wrote: Funnily enough my first choice in the top left would have been where X marks the spot. But my joseki knowledge is pretty non-existent nowadays so I might miss a continuation where White uses the attachment to make the extension a good move
When black starts with the attachment at D17, white may still revert to the same variation as when black started at E18, but in a different move order
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Attach in the corner
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 4 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 1 2 . . . . . . b . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . W . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . e . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . g . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . d , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . O . c . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Submarine approach to the corner
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 3 4 . . . . . . b . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . W . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . e . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . g . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . d , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . O . c . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Knotwilg
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Re: Slonection

Post by Knotwilg »

Another slonection
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Moves 149 to 149
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . O O O X . . |
$$ | . 2 . X . . . . . . X . X O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . , O O O O O , . . X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . O O . X O O O X . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X X O X X . X X O . O O . . |
$$ | . O O X O X O O O X O O X X X X O . . |
$$ | . X . X O O X X O O X X O O X O X . . |
$$ | X . . X O O . 1 X X . X O O O O X . . |
$$ | . X X O X O X . X X X X O X . O X . . |
$$ | X X O O . O O . X O O O O X O O X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . O X X X O . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X X O O O X X . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
:b1: saves two stones with the intention to put pressure on the White group again. When White played :w2: I realized how stupid my ide was.
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