Life In 19x19

Posted: **Mon Sep 06, 2021 4:59 am**

yuzukitea wrote:Recent youtube video by Cho Hyeyeon 9p (Aug 20, 2021): https://youtu.be/qozyiQiVmt0?t=7246

That is a really nice find, I mean this lecture series for Malaysian go players is interesting. The comments on the Chinese opening seem fairly rudimentary, I guess it is practical to just have a way deal with it if you don't plan to play it and if it is not so common anymore.

gennan wrote:Then the Chinese opening lost popularity again under the influence of AlphaGo Master in 2017, preferring and popularizing this opening (perhaps this could be called the modern orthodox opening):

Nice observations there. I always find it interesting how quickly the pros seem to coalesce in support of new openings.

Is it a case of the pros wanting to play the most popular opening to gain experience playing what they are most likely to have to play against? -or- that the "old" openings are worse? I think maybe the former.

Posted: **Sat Sep 11, 2021 6:10 pm**

kvasir wrote:
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
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There is also this way in addition to the once mentioned above, now the marked stone looks like it is in a good place.

Shibano doesn't go into this in his book. But I just noticed a similar position in the June issue of Go World in which Ichiriki Ryo gives commentary on his game in the NHK Cup. Though this used the high-Chinese and I'm not sure it works with the low since would-be cut solved by the high stone would play different in the low Chinese. I am just using computer translation so some things could be off.

My impression is that Ichiriki saw this variation in the Women's Honinbo and realized that while the position could be easier for black to play. So Ichiriki ended up studying the position intensely with AI and in a study group and he discovered that White can maintain a better position, but it is difficult to find and there are a few possible missteps.

Here is the game that was played in the NHK Cup

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . 8 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 4 6 7 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 O 3 5 . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X W X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O B X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 4 X O O O . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X W X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 5 . . 3 . X O B X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

And here Ichiriki's thoughts after studying the position. White 24, labeled 1, is the crucial point

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Here, moves 11, 12, and 13 are labeled 1, 2, and 3. 11 and 13 on the right, 12 captures. Ichiriki says that White's sacrifice of 3 and 9 are the key to White having a good position. And this is not easy to find without study.

He says more but it's dinner time and food is hot.

Posted: **Sat Sep 11, 2021 6:47 pm**

It is annoying how it is not possible to make diagrams with longer variations.

The variations you show also works for the low-chinese except the last one that would be different. The low stone is more effective at protecting the cut because in this case the inside stones are dead (as with the high-chinese) but any cutting stones would also be caught in a ladder.

I checked this line in the low-chinese with katago before but I can't find the file where I saved it. Basically, it appeared completely viable for black. Lot of minor fluctuations regarding the exact move order and things like that. That is actually a good thing in a way, it is not too obvious. Maybe this will be a comeback for the Chinese opening, but then I think it has been played for awhile by pros without becoming a fad.

Posted: **Sat Sep 11, 2021 11:22 pm**

I appreciate the insight. I wonder if this line is really any better for black than the simple variations. At least it seems fine. More variety is always interesting.

Here is the full game, by the way: 68th NHK Cup Final

Going back to the original question, I guess if Ichiriki played the Chinese opening (though he says he wasn't ever really into it), then it isn't gone. But I wonder if it was really the misstep that allowed for success. Now the variations are known. Maybe it was a one time deal. We'll see.

Posted: **Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:57 pm**

Geez, I'm seeing the Chinese opening everywhere now. Michael Redmond covered a different one of Alpha Go's self-play games and suggested that when black cuts against the 4-4 attachment, White should extend both ways and then cut Black on the 4th line (instead of crawling along the second line at 'a').

https://youtu.be/szDHwCknVeU?t=438

Black extends at 9 in this position instead of curling at 'b' and capturing at 'c' because that would put the side-stone too close. But often the side-stone will be 1 space further than here, and so then maybe black would play b and c.

In Redmond's version white has sente to play 10 while in Ichiriki's version (where White 6 is at 'a' and so on) it is black has sente. White will have profit in Ichiriki's variation though. Like always, the choice probably depends on the rest of the board.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X O . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . X X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 c . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . b 7 2 . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . 6 1 Q X . . | $$ | . . . . . 0 . . . . . . 8 3 O Y 5 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . a 4 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Posted: **Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:25 am**

One of my opponents played the Chinese opening move on Saturday (no komi game) and the strongest KataGo network basically agrees this is the best move. Obviously there are many other good moves but it is interesting how much this move comes up when analyzing. Then it does seem to get played more often then before by pros in these later stage opening situations and also by white, rather than as move 5.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , a . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This was the position and KataGo debates between a or b which was played in the game. Either way, Kata ends up with this (not what was played) and extends to

or a. It is double interesting because it is such an archetypical moyo game.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . O O O . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . X X X . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . a . 1 . , . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This was with 0.5 komi, when I change to 6.5 komi Kata has preference for the large knight's move enclosure (and she debates that move with the large high enclosure). Again, there are a lot of good moves.

Life In 19x19

Did you stop playing Chinese style openings?

Re: Did you stop playing Chinese style openings?

Re: Did you stop playing Chinese style openings?

Re: Did you stop playing Chinese style openings?

Re: Did you stop playing Chinese style openings?

Re: Did you stop playing Chinese style openings?

Re: Did you stop playing Chinese style openings?