Life In 19x19

Posted: **Sat Feb 24, 2024 2:16 pm**

Do you know where one can obtain the game record? With some searching online I found some videos of earlier matches at https://www.youtube.com/@nakaneigo-doujyo/videos but seemingly not of the match you presented the opening of here.

Posted: **Sat Feb 24, 2024 4:40 pm**

A KataGo review of my latest game reminded me of this thread. First position:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Position at move 48 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . O . | $$ | . . . . O . . O . . . . X X O O O X . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . a X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . O O O O O . . | $$ | . . X X X . . . O . X X O X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . X . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Although KataGo's focus is on the cut at A in the upper right, my focus - and I assume many of yours - was on the upper left. The thread is a giveaway but where would you play as White? And even with the hint KataGo's preference may still surprise you.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Position at move 48 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . X O . O . O . | $$ | . . 1 . O . . O . . . . X X O O O X . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . a X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . c . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . O O O O O . . | $$ | . . X X X . . . O . X X O X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . X . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Not only did KataGo (slightly) prefer attacking from the stronger group, it also (slightly) prefers attaching to the target stone, instead of the more intuitive slide at B. My move was C.

Position 2:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Position at move 53 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . O . | $$ | . . . X O . . O . . . . X X O O O X . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . , . . . . X X X . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . O O O O O . . | $$ | . . X X X . . . O . X X O X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . X . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

A few moves later, another example fitting this thread.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Position at move 53 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . O . | $$ | . . . X O . . O . . . . X X O O O X . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . , . . . . X X X . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . O O O O O . . | $$ | . . X X X . . . O . X X O X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . X . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This time, KataGo prefers strengthening the leftmost stones, which I saw as having sufficient backup from the wall below it. My move was A, attacking from what I perceived as the weaker side.

We might look at this position with a different perspective: make profit while attacking. Obviously the potential for profit/territory is much larger on the left side, while White's topside stones are probably more of the disposable kind.

is on the fourth line too and getting sufficiently close to the wall to start forming a moyo of proper dimensions. B is wider, perhaps too wide.

Posted: **Sun Feb 25, 2024 2:11 am**

Knotwilg wrote:A KataGo review of my latest game reminded me of this thread. First position:

$$ Position at move 48 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . O . | $$ | . . . . O . . O . . . . X X O O O X . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . a X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . O O O O O . . | $$ | . . X X X . . . O . X X O X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . X . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Position at move 48 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . O . | $$ | . . . . O . . O . . . . X X O O O X . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . a X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . O O O O O . . | $$ | . . X X X . . . O . X X O X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . X . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Although KataGo's focus is on the cut at A in the upper right, my focus - and I assume many of yours - was on the upper left. The thread is a giveaway but where would you play as White? And even with the hint KataGo's preference may still surprise you.

$$W Position at move 48 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . X O . O . O . | $$ | . . 1 . O . . O . . . . X X O O O X . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . a X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . c . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . O O O O O . . | $$ | . . X X X . . . O . X X O X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . X . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Position at move 48 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . X O . O . O . | $$ | . . 1 . O . . O . . . . X X O O O X . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . a X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . c . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . O O O O O . . | $$ | . . X X X . . . O . X X O X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . X . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Not only did KataGo (slightly) prefer attacking from the stronger group, it also (slightly) prefers attaching to the target stone, instead of the more intuitive slide at B. My move was C.
Position 2:

$$ Position at move 53 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . O . | $$ | . . . X O . . O . . . . X X O O O X . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . , . . . . X X X . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . O O O O O . . | $$ | . . X X X . . . O . X X O X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . X . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Position at move 53 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . O . | $$ | . . . X O . . O . . . . X X O O O X . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . , . . . . X X X . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . O O O O O . . | $$ | . . X X X . . . O . X X O X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . X . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
A few moves later, another example fitting this thread.

$$W Position at move 53 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . O . | $$ | . . . X O . . O . . . . X X O O O X . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . , . . . . X X X . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . O O O O O . . | $$ | . . X X X . . . O . X X O X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . X . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Position at move 53 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . O . | $$ | . . . X O . . O . . . . X X O O O X . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . , . . . . X X X . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . O O O O O . . | $$ | . . X X X . . . O . X X O X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . X . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
This time, KataGo prefers strengthening the leftmost stones, which I saw as having sufficient backup from the wall below it. My move was A, attacking from what I perceived as the weaker side.

We might look at this position with a different perspective: make profit while attacking. Obviously the potential for profit/territory is much larger on the left side, while White's topside stones are probably more of the disposable kind. is on the fourth line too and getting sufficiently close to the wall to start forming a moyo of proper dimensions. B is wider, perhaps too wide.

It is an interesting example. Looking at the second diagram, I didn't like the cramped ugly shape Black has ended up with.

If I were playing Black, I'd like to challenge W's use of the new AI orthodoxy of leaving the wall undefended - by playing 49 at D9.

Playing your 48 at C12 is ambitious AI style to gain maximum points, but I'd personally worry I'd have to be KataGo strength to manage the complex fighting in any counter-attack.

[Edited: to remove my confusion over move numbers and my first unsuccessful attempt at using a diagram]

Posted: **Sun Feb 25, 2024 3:20 am**

Knotwilg wrote:First position:

Probably the reasons of Katago's suggestions are:

it's the common base of two weak groups;
the move is reverse sente.

Posted: **Sun Feb 25, 2024 4:34 am**

lightvector:

Do you know where one can obtain the game record?

(;SZ[19]FF[3]
PW[Katago]
PB[Nakane Naoyuki]
HA[2]
RE[W+R]
US[GoGoD95]
AB[dp][pd]
;W[pp];B[cd];W[cn];B[fq];W[ed];B[ec];W[fc];B[dc];W[fd];B[cf];W[nc];B[jd]
;W[lc];B[oc];W[nd];B[pf];W[jf];B[kc];W[le];B[hd];W[hf];B[ge];W[dd];B[cc]
;W[df];B[gf];W[cg];B[bf];W[dg];B[hg];W[dj];B[if];W[ig];B[he];W[qh];B[re]
;W[je];B[ld];W[ih];B[lb];W[ob];B[pb];W[mb];B[gi];W[md];B[mc];W[og];B[qn]
;W[qo];B[pn];W[np];B[pk];W[gp];B[gq];W[ip];B[of];W[ng];B[ke];W[kf];B[dk]
;W[ej];B[kd];W[mf];B[lg];W[lf];B[dm];W[eo];B[cp];W[dn];B[em];W[hi];B[gj]
;W[gh];B[hb];W[gb];B[jb];W[ck];B[cl];W[bk];B[hj];W[hh];B[ek];W[bl];B[gn]
;W[hl];B[gl];W[hm];B[hk];W[jl];B[jj];W[gm];B[fm];W[hq];B[fp];W[fo];B

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go] ;W[hp];B[cm];W[bm];B[bo];W[bn];B[ll];W[fl];B[fk];W[gk];B[jm];W[kl];B[km] ;W[il];B[lk];W[lm];B[ln];W[mm];B[mn];W[nm];B[in];W[hn];B[oo];W[kk];B[gl] ;W[bq];B[bp];W[gk];B[op];W[lj];B[gl];W[ha];B[gc];W[ib];B[ic];W[gk];B[mk] ;W[gl];B[mj];W[oq];B[li];W[kj];B[mi];W[hc];B[ki];W[ji];B[jh];W[ii];B[jg] ;W[ie];B[hf];W[fh];B[hb];W[od];B[pc];W[hc];B[id];W[pg];B[pi];W[ka];B[hb] ;W[qf];B[qe];W[hc];B[oa];W[nb];B[hb];W[qj];B[pj];W[hc];B[ja];W[rf];B[hb] ;W[qk];B[ql];W[hc];B[la];W[se];B[sd];W[sf];B[rc];W[mp];B[qi];W[ri];B[rh] ;W[sh];B[rj];W[rg];B[jp];W[jq];B[kq];W[kp];B[pq];W[qq];B[pr];W[qr];B[jo] ;W[lq];B[hr];W[ko] )[/go]

Posted: **Sun Feb 25, 2024 9:23 pm**

Thanks!

Posted: **Mon Feb 26, 2024 3:30 am**

Off-topic: but are there any views on Nakane Naoyuki's 12-game uchikomi match with katago?

It will be interesting to see how it turns out of course. But as a thought experiment, I wonder if a strong amateur who specialises for a while in 2 and 3 stone games with Katago, and explores thoroughly what it recommends for Black, may end up a stronger niche specialist in low handicap go with katago than a 9dan pro coming to it afresh?

Life In 19x19

Attack from your weakness towards your strenght?

Re: Attack from your weakness towards your strenght?

Re: Attack from your weakness towards your strenght?

Re: Attack from your weakness towards your strenght?

Re: Attack from your weakness towards your strenght?

Re: Attack from your weakness towards your strenght?

Re: Attack from your weakness towards your strenght?

Re: Attack from your weakness towards your strenght?