new low

General conversations about Go belong here.
tapir
Lives in sente
Posts: 774
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 5:52 pm
GD Posts: 0
Has thanked: 137 times
Been thanked: 155 times
Contact:

Re: new low

Post by tapir »

hyperpape wrote:
topazg wrote:Not only that, but GoR varies between countries. A French 1900 is typically stronger than a UK 1900.


1. Anecdote or statistically based?
2. Are there efforts to fix it?
3. It must really tear your nerves up to lose to the French that way. Amirite?


You have subpopulations which interact rarely with each other. When they interact the ratings adapt, but it is doubtful whether a hundred rated games (UK-FR) per year is enough to do so compared to several thousand rated games within the UK. That the winning rate of the UK in UK-FR matches is consistently at 40% or lower since at least ten years, indicates a difference in the local GoR if you ask me.
User avatar
topazg
Tengen
Posts: 4511
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:08 am
Rank: Nebulous
GD Posts: 918
KGS: topazg
Location: Chatteris, UK
Has thanked: 1579 times
Been thanked: 650 times
Contact:

Re: new low

Post by topazg »

hyperpape wrote:
topazg wrote:Not only that, but GoR varies between countries. A French 1900 is typically stronger than a UK 1900.


1. Anecdote or statistically based?
2. Are there efforts to fix it?
3. It must really tear your nerves up to lose to the French that way. Amirite?


1. A bit of both. I did some stats on Panda.net tours when I was on the British Go Council and working to try and find a way of standardising ratings and ranks in a meaningful way. Much of the problem arose when the French started not allowing people to reset their ranks at the strong ends. So quick improvers gained their points by earning them (and, at the same time, taking them away from other stronger players) causing some pretty serious rank inflation compared to other countries. If my sources are correct, I hear it is going on in Finland too, but I don't know about other countries.

2. I'm not sure if you can. As tapir says, how can you know what needs fixing without a lot more international rated games being played. It's hard enough to get people within a country's organisation to agree what to do with their internal ranks (for example, currently in the UK, 2040 is 1 dan, due to a long complicated procedure that has a bunch of pros and cons of its own), let alone work with other countries towards a common goal.

3. S'ok, I'm Scottish, I bear the French no bad blood ;)
User avatar
mohsart
Lives with ko
Posts: 209
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 3:49 pm
Rank: Swedish 3 kyu
GD Posts: 0
Location: Blekinge, Sweden
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 38 times
Contact:

Re: new low

Post by mohsart »

The Swedish ranking system states that "if more than three games among the game results used for ranking up are against Japan, the Americas, Great Britain, Portugal, or a region within what used to be Jugoslavia, the Ranking Commitee will have to approve" (my translation).

This was written more than 10 years ago and I'm not entirely sure it is (still) valid, but it is a fact that some countries are stronger (and some weaker) than others.

If I understand correctly, the Finns (infamous for being stronger than their ranks) tries to "fix" their ranks by as often as possible rank up people two steps (so that the GoR gets reset).

/Mats
mohsart - games & books
http://spel.mohsart.se/
richardamullens
Dies with sente
Posts: 93
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 7:07 am
Rank: kgs 5 kyu
GD Posts: 0
KGS: cockroach, hobosaurus
Location: Europe
Has thanked: 87 times
Been thanked: 20 times
Contact:

Re: new low

Post by richardamullens »

I wonder what we can do to reverse this declining trend in membership ?
The first thing, I suppose is to understand it.

The headline on the front page of the BGA journal in December 1969 is "John Diamond retires" (well, actually from editing the journal). 42 years on the "Old guard" are still in charge. I wonder if there is anything in the current administration that inhibits newcomers from participating ?

I played hardly any Go during the 1970's but was an unattached member because the Journal provided useful information that is now available for free on the BGA website and elsewhere.

The members seemed more dynamic in those far off days. On the back page of the April 1974 journal, there is news of the Southern Go League involving the Woodford, Reading, Bristol, Bracknell and W.London clubs. Participants included F.Roads, J.Hawdon, K.Rapley, D.Hunter & T.M.Hall. Additionally there is news that a team of 6 led by Jim Bates & Mark Hall visited Paris for a weekend session.

The maximum BGA membership coincided with the time at which the London Go centre was in operation. In the year after it closed, membership dropped by 180 and has never recovered. There was also the BBC Open Door broadcast in that period.

There is an ongoing effort to teach children, but I noticed very few British youth at the London Open. UK entry at the London Open was down from 71 last year to 56 this year whereas foreign entry was constant at 43.

In the Dutch WinterGo (December 27-31) (entry 74) there were 18 Dutch players weaker than 10k. At London there was 1 UK player weaker than 10k. Maybe British tournaments are too formal or just not child friendly.

Finally, we chose AGA rules instead of the simpler and clearer French rules which may discourage people from taking up the game.
User avatar
topazg
Tengen
Posts: 4511
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:08 am
Rank: Nebulous
GD Posts: 918
KGS: topazg
Location: Chatteris, UK
Has thanked: 1579 times
Been thanked: 650 times
Contact:

Re: new low

Post by topazg »

I think we need more carrots. Without incentives, why join? It costs you money, and you want to know what you get for it.

At the moment, this is:

Journal.
Cheaper Tournament Entry.

If you don't enter more than 6 real life tournaments, and don't read the journal, why should you join? With the introduction of Internet Go, and the steady decline of clubs and paid BGA members, I think there needs to be an overhaul into what can make the association something proud to be a part of.

I am a member because a) I'm British or at least live in Britain, b) I like Go and c) I want more people to like Go. As such, supporting the association seems important. I was on the council and involved in both the online activities, policy issues, and handling rating discrepancies and controversies, and when my personal life is less crazy, I may return to doing more of the same. In the meantime, it needs people with good ideas and motivation to do something about it to put their best foot forward and help. Stand for nomination for the council at the BGA in a few months, take on a role in a specific area, and see what can be done to make it more attractive, particularly with regards to people we know who are still active Go players but just don't have any good reason to be a part of the organisation.
RobertJasiek
Judan
Posts: 6273
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:54 pm
GD Posts: 0
Been thanked: 797 times
Contact:

Re: new low

Post by RobertJasiek »

As a foreigner, surely I must miss most reasons for BGA membership decline. Here are some nevertheless:

- British players again fear the channel and hardly enter international tournaments. Without heroes, more players might lack motivation.
- The quality of BGJ contents fell down dramatically. (I am not sure about the last two or three years though.)
- A perfect book supply with great literature at incredibly low prices was replaced by a "do not store new books" BGA policy.
- British economy is not in its most competitive state.
Javaness
Lives with ko
Posts: 293
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:20 am
GD Posts: 0
Has thanked: 10 times
Been thanked: 41 times

Re: new low

Post by Javaness »

I think a sea change in attitude might be needed to turn around membership figures. The current viewpoint is that it is perfectly acceptable to lose 200 members over 4 years because all organisations are losing members. This doesn't sit well with me. :) One thing I wonder about is, would it be better if membership was compulsory to play in a tournament? A sliding scale of membership could be introduced, you have to pay for rating, then for standard membership, then perhaps an even more advanced level?

It doesn't seem obvious to me that the ruleset used in tournaments would be responsible for the drop, certainly one could argue that (the drop does come at the time they were introduced with the claim that they would make understanding how to play the game easier), but my fixed view on this episode was that it was a pointless, demonstrably non-beneficial waste of time, originating from ..., well not originating from the best of motives if you ask me. French rules would probably be better for the visitors to the London open, but beyond that I can't see any genuine benefit.

There are signs that recruitment is starting to pick up a little, because the BGA was seeing substantial numbers of new players emerge for a while, but more needs to be acheived in this regard. I know people are trying here :)

The journal is not really a membership benefit anymore, since it becomes available online for free after a year. It's good to see a more frequent journal, with a proactive approach from certain senior figures with regards to its production. Speaking of online, I am pleased by the increase in online events.

Overall, I think the BGA needs more student clubs, more coordinated schools activity, and a review of its overall structure. Judging from the leadership, it seems clear to me that there are certain lynchpins in the organisation, but no obvious replacements for them.
BobC
Lives with ko
Posts: 198
Joined: Sat Nov 27, 2010 2:02 pm
Rank: lol
GD Posts: 0
KGS: DrBobC
Tygem: 35kyu
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 23 times

Re: new low

Post by BobC »

well.. here's a 14 kyu commenting....

Oddly.. I was a member of the BGA in 1977 and still have the documents and membership card.

I visited a few clubs at the time and was graded by a guy called Fearnly in Oxford - looks like he's still around. I also note that after 30+ years my grade is still 14 kyu :(

At the time a number of things seemed to happen - a bit of profile in the press - there were even Go games available in some toy shops. For about a year Go was chic...

Like it or not.. Go is very "geeky". I bet most people on this board know what "public static void main" means... That combined with the learning curve from hell leads to a restricted market

I also note that Go clubs seem to have a place in Universities.

I have no particular agenda to further Go BUT we will be using Go as an induction activity for 200 odd first year students next year (they will be asked to learn Go before they come to Uni, then at the end of the first week we will hold a competition with a Goban as a prize). Dry runs with an altered DGS are encouraging and I already have a number of initiated and keen geeks.. (who I need to train in order to count)

Possibly a University online league (need to find champions) might be something that the BGA might get involved with... Injecting young blood might be fruitful..
John Fairbairn
Oza
Posts: 3724
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:09 am
Has thanked: 20 times
Been thanked: 4672 times

Re: new low

Post by John Fairbairn »

Overall, I think the BGA needs more student clubs, more coordinated schools activity, and a review of its overall structure.


Superficially this seems unobjectionable (and I also agree that the AGA rules bit is a red herring), but it may be worth challenging it in the hope of deeper insights.

I have no convincing answers for go, but I observe that other organised leisure activities use different models. I mention two below. These may work in some way for go.

1. I have a friend who teaches taiji (t'ai-chi). It seems that the standard model for martial arts is that a teacher offers class tuition. He rents the room and charges students. He keeps any profit as a way of earning his living, and he may also make something from offering equipment or books for sale. Because this model is often seen as educational, it is apparently fairly common to get rooms for nothing or at a discount from local councils or education authorities, or even companies. In the case of taiji, at least, it is possible to point to side benefits (relaxation, improved health, etc) and this makes it fairly easy (at least when the economy is running smoothly) also to interest companies, schools and other organisations in running e.g. lunchtime introductory courses for a fee.

The teacher's class is not a club, but from the pupils' point of view it offers much the same benefits (there are weekend outings, even group trips to China, and attendance at tournaments). An extra benefit is that the teacher does all the organisational work.

The teacher does not have to belong to a higher organisation, but there is one. However, it is small and has very few functions. Again, limiting myself to what I know about the taiji case, these functions include optional certification, advice and discounts on insurance, and serving as a convenient contact point with China.

It seems to me this model could serve for budding go professionals or teachers, though perhaps only as a full-time job in major cities (I believe taiji supports several full-time teachers in London and a couple in Birmingham, our "second city").

I think the key here is stressing the side benefits of taiji, but that can better be discussed under the second model.

2. The second model is aimed mainly at parents and opinion formers (including the press). There are certain activities which are widely, even if sometimes falsely, seen as beneficial to children or people who want to improve themselves. Taiji is one example, but music lessons and several activities that crop up regularly in local adult education courses fit the bill. Even trivia such as sudoku are sold as brain improvers in the media.

Go can quite easily, although perhaps with tongue in cheek occasionally, be sold as useful in enhancing calculating ability, decision making, long-term planning, concentration, awareness of other cultures, and health (e.g. delaying mental degradation). If these sorts of pitches are made to parents, company training sections, people who run old people's homes, etc., a BGA-type organisation would be needed to attend to the resulting enquiries. We have one, and that's a good start, but the information we offer is currently of the wrong sort, so changes of attitude and structure would still be needed.

For this model to work, the focus of BGA activity would in fact need to change drastically, to parents and opinion formers and away from students and children (who may, nevertheless, be the main beneficiaries). It would, however, be the parents and so on who take the lead in organising, or at least demanding, local activities. They may choose not to do this in club form, but by hiring teachers.

Conclusions

Looking at these two possible models - there must be more and they can each be refined - I come to three conclusions as to what may be at fault under the present system.

1. The club model rather than the class model may be out of date now, or just not suitable any more.

2. Publicity about the game's activity is currently totally misguided (this is an old bee in my bonnet). Year after year I hear the old refrain that the BGA/AGA/whatever must contact the local press and offer them two things: (a) announcements about tournaments, and (b) a column devoted to tsume-go problems. Utter codswallop. I speak as a journalist. Two main things are wrong with this approach: no editor of any merit is going to be interested, and they are too local. What is needed are major articles that tell people in general, not just likely games nerds, what benefits are to be had from the game. Even the few articles that have made it to the national press so far mostly tend just to sell go as an interesting game for nerds. It should rather be sold as a game that expands your brain, that makes you live longer, that makes you a better manager, that staves off Alzheimer's, etc. Articles like that not only attract national papers (usually for the health pages or the like) but are syndicated, and because they are general and not news related, they can be recycled easily. (And as a minor plus, you get paid well for them, so it should be budding teachers who either write them or who brief journalists.)

3. This item derives from the last. If a valid market to aim at is indeed parents, opinion formers and the like, it is equally misguided to stress, as the BGA currently does, that go is a very easy game to learn. There have been repeated efforts by some BGA officials to eliminate any hint that go is "challenging" - the c-word in British go. But if you want to convince people that go is worth taking up and, more to the point, getting involved in, it has to be seen as a worthy challenge.

In fact, although the above is mainly brain-storming and does not necessarily represent my own views in every way, I am strongly tempted to believe that the recent slump in BGA membership may be connected with the dumbing down of go in this country.
User avatar
kirkmc
Lives in sente
Posts: 1072
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 3:51 am
Rank: 5K KGS
GD Posts: 1165
KGS: Dogen
Location: Stratford-upon-Avon, England
Has thanked: 32 times
Been thanked: 70 times
Contact:

Re: new low

Post by kirkmc »

Two thoughts (though my not being in the UK may make my attitude different):

First, the internet. I'd be willing to bet that more people play go in the UK than ever before, but fewer go to clubs. People have more and more things to do, and taking the time to go to a club - and join an organization - may just be the kind of thing they drop most easily. A quick game on KGS or IGS can satisfy the dopamine urge without having to travel, take the tube, or park, to play among a group of people who, in all but large cities, are the same every time.

Second, why join the BGA or any other national organization? For several years, I lived in Tours, France, where there was a small but very friendly club (thanks especially to one member who had a lovely house and welcomed us every week). The club was an official club, part of the FFG, but of all the years I went there, I only joined the FFG for one year; there was no reason to, except to play in tournaments. Since, at the time, I was a DDK, I didn't see tournaments as being interesting. (I did, one year, join the FFG and play one day in a tournament, but didn't have the mind set to play in such an environment.) If you don't want to play in tournaments, and can still go to the club, why pay to join an organization?
My blog about Macs and more: Kirkville
richardamullens
Dies with sente
Posts: 93
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 7:07 am
Rank: kgs 5 kyu
GD Posts: 0
KGS: cockroach, hobosaurus
Location: Europe
Has thanked: 87 times
Been thanked: 20 times
Contact:

Re: new low

Post by richardamullens »

Javaness wrote:
It doesn't seem obvious to me that the ruleset used in tournaments would be responsible for the drop, certainly one could argue that (the drop does come at the time they were introduced with the claim that they would make understanding how to play the game easier), but my fixed view on this episode was that it was a pointless, demonstrably non-beneficial waste of time, originating from ..., well not originating from the best of motives if you ask me. French rules would probably be better for the visitors to the London open, but beyond that I can't see any genuine benefit.


I agree that the change of ruleset is not responsible for the loss of existing members, but I think that the presentation of the new rules (once you have succeeded in finding them) is offputting to someone just learning the game over what it could have been.

The new rules are at http://www.britgo.org/files/rulesofplay.pdf and the translated French rules can be found at http://www.rhodamine.eu/~sagc/GoRules/regles/regleGo_translated.html.

[I always mention that John Fairbairn kindly did the bulk of the translation and that they can also be found on the "New in Go" site - see the link at the very end of http://www.gogod.co.uk/NewInGo/FrenchRules/FrenchRules.htm]

My complaint concerning the BGA rules is the abundant presence of forward (and backward) references, the decision to include tournament rules rather than keep these separate, the absence of any diagrams and a generally stark monochrome "dog's dinner" layout.

The benefit of the adoption of AGA type rules to my mind is the avoidance of the sleight of hand that occurs when explaining the end of the game to a newcomer - something along the lines that "those stones are dead - so we take them off and put them in your territory" and if they play on to explore the situation, they lose even more.

My view then is that the British rules are an impediment to recruitment and uptake of the game - they will not destroy the BGA but they don't help.
User avatar
jts
Oza
Posts: 2664
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2010 4:17 pm
Rank: kgs 6k
GD Posts: 0
Has thanked: 310 times
Been thanked: 634 times

Re: new low

Post by jts »

As an onlooker from afar, what is the problem with declining membership? Is it causing fiscal problems for the BGA, or is it purely a matter of pride?
richardamullens
Dies with sente
Posts: 93
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 7:07 am
Rank: kgs 5 kyu
GD Posts: 0
KGS: cockroach, hobosaurus
Location: Europe
Has thanked: 87 times
Been thanked: 20 times
Contact:

Re: new low

Post by richardamullens »

jts wrote:As an onlooker from afar, what is the problem with declining membership? Is it causing fiscal problems for the BGA, or is it purely a matter of pride?


It is just one of many symptoms that makes one feel that Go in the UK is less healthy than elsewhere.

If for example our funds are low, then prizes at tournaments are reduced so the better players stay away - I think you can see the consequences of that.
BobC
Lives with ko
Posts: 198
Joined: Sat Nov 27, 2010 2:02 pm
Rank: lol
GD Posts: 0
KGS: DrBobC
Tygem: 35kyu
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 23 times

Re: new low

Post by BobC »

I am curious that Suduku seems to have won a place in the press... yet Go problems haven't.

I have students who wandering into to labs doing a suduku problems.. never understood the fixation myself.

I would be curious to see if an article with a Go problem could be syndicated to say all local newspapers for free - with a link to ogs or kgs. If nothing else it might stir interest.

My Chinese colleague plays go with me avidly... the reason is that he can't find anyone (even Chinese) to play with him. The number one reason he claims is the time it takes for a game to play out .. in the UK we are not good at sitting down and playing games.. (unless something explodes in the game every five seconds)..

I suppose the final point made is valid.. is the BGA really needed? In the old days.. tournaments and ratings were facilitated by these bodies. Now, credible ratings are available on the internet and really, online play is so much easier..

I thought a few months back that a different approach to go tournaments might work..taking the same format as online poker events. i.e.. months are spent online qualifying for a major national event. As this would occur infrequently .. fees could be more effectively used.. and the event would be bigger... just a thought..
pwaldron
Lives in gote
Posts: 409
Joined: Wed May 19, 2010 8:40 am
GD Posts: 1072
Has thanked: 29 times
Been thanked: 182 times

Re: new low

Post by pwaldron »

BobC wrote:I suppose the final point made is valid.. is the BGA really needed? In the old days.. tournaments and ratings were facilitated by these bodies. Now, credible ratings are available on the internet and really, online play is so much easier..


A question that could be asked of all Western go organizations. If you are happy with the state of Western go then of course you don't need a national organization. Fire up the computer, get your go fix and you're fine.

On the other hand, if you want to see both the quantity and quality of Western go players improve, then that is more than a single person can manage. You need some kind of structure to pool talent and resources towards a greater goal.
Post Reply