Have you ever played the 4-5? The 4-5 is a very sensible option in my opinion. Yes, it neglects the corner and yes it is asymmetrical, but if you know these properties and don't mind them, then there is nothing wrong. After you get over the craziness and exclude dan-level trick plays, the 4-5 is actually pretty easy to handle, definitely easier than the 3-4. As a bonus, most ddk don't know what to do with them
As I said in my first post, I've not actually played it yet. I don't get to play many (or indeed any, lately) even games over the board, and online I get too scared to play anything new. (And I'm off online play at the moment anyway.) I think a game like this is a perfect opportunity to try something new - as I said, I have a feeling it may suit me. But if our esteemed captain Marcus doesn't feel comfortable with it, then that's fine - particularly given my lack of any joseki knowledge. (Actually, it's not quite true to say that I know none - if black later approaches at the 3-4 and we tenuki then I'm on reasonably familiar ground, and for this reason it probably wouldn't be hard for me to come up with something at least half-decent as a local response. Anyway, as you say, the black players would probably be in at least as unfamiliar territory for them as we would.)
Re: Teamovich 2
Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 10:00 am
by robinz
Incidentally, is there any reason why the caption below the diagram for move 1 implies that White gets only 0.5 komi? Did someone compute that the white team was a stone stronger than the black one, or something?
(I doubt it's going to end up mattering, but just in case it does, it's best to sort this out early.)
Re: Teamovich 2
Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 10:13 am
by Redundant
Woops, I copy and pasted it from another thread. Komi should be normal (6.5 or 7.5, depending on rule set).
**Now fixed
Re: Teamovich 2
Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 1:21 pm
by Marcus
WIC:
Already I'm debating over choices here. Rafa, please let me know which move you want me to consider alongside 5-4 and 6-4.
Re: Teamovich 2
Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 2:18 pm
by Mnemonic
WIC
I think we are taking too long To avoid confusion I will always try to emphasize my nomination (maybe we should all do this). If my captain wants my opinion on the move choices so far, look below. If that's too confusing, or might influence your choice in a bad direction I will stop. Also, I feel I'm repeating myself.
Some more WIC
I wanted to propose the 4-5 myself and still think it is one of if not the best play. I've played it extensively and am very comfortable with it. I never played the 4-6 but I will rely on my 4-5 and 4-4 knowledge to try and carry me through. About the 44, I have no problem with it but find it boring If anything else is nominated and played I would really like to know why since I then would have to rework my overall strategy.
4-5: The safe play 4-6: The risky play, but the one with the wtf aspect (they played tengen, let’s show then we're not scared ) 4-4: The ubersafe play. It feels like a pro move. Calmly playing a very flexible move and putting the pressure on black to show what he's got. But I'm nowhere near pro and playing calm isn't my style (like roughly every amateur)
And even more WIC
This hide tag is just to scare/annoy my opponents à la Magicwand
But if some observer with more knowledge about playing tengen than me wants to comment on my thoughts, I'd be highly interested.
So, we're going to play the 5-4. It has some interesting continuations, none of which I'm going to show you. Reading practice is good.
I want to play something more or less normal, but still leave things open for some fun later. The 5-4 gives that opportunity. The general idea, though, is to try and play for some influence.
However, there's something to keep in mind ... tengen limits our influence as well. We don't want to fall behind in territory, because we will NOT be making very many points in the center (unless we kill the tengen ... not an easy feat).
For Observers only:
This is an interesting exercise for captains, I think. Especially with DDK and close-to-DDK soldiers, I hope I'll be able to balance a competitive game with good lessons for my soldiers. I don't want to give too much to them, of course. I want them to think about their moves, and I hope my comments will provide them with ideas for improvement.
Re: Teamovich 2
Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 9:15 pm
by Mnemonic
WIC
The more I think about it the more I believe that is the only choice black has. It makes miai out of the two corners that are left and, because of its symmetrical nature, makes it hard to exploit. Following the corner-sides-center doctrine I think the correct play would be at (a), but then white would get a nice looking moyo by playing in the other corner. Therefore I propose This is also a Trigger to move things along: if blacks next play is the opposite 44 I nominate C6
The reason being that it makes black less likely to play (a), because that would mean he would have a group in his territory. That means we might have a chance to play it ourselves . If black tenukis I plan on double approaching.
Re: Teamovich 2
Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 4:26 am
by robinz
WIC:
Rafa, you just repeated my nomination - I think the idea is to give the captain 3 different choices, even if you happen to agree with one of the previous nominations. Still, it's too late now, and no damage has been done (although I suspect Marcus may disagree...)
Far be it from me to argue with our captain, who's a good 7/8 stones stronger than me, but I think he's far too scared of the tengen stone. As far as I can see, its only real concrete value, at this stage, is in making all ladders which head for the centre work for black. That's a bit annoying, but hardly the end of the world - we just have to take care to avoid any joseki or other sequences involving ladders. Although, we could always have fun by first playing an attachment to tengen as a ladder-breaker
I take the point that we're going to need to take some territory at some point, but we're guaranteed to get at least one more corner, and can always play 3-4 or even 3-3 in that if we're desparate for some quick cash. (Or, unless black approaches early, play the 3-4 underneath our 5-4.) I just think it's a bit ridiculous, at least for kyu players like ourselves, to get scared and have to think about treading ridiculously carefully after black's move 1
I can't believe we're already on page 2 of the thread before 2 moves were played, for one. And it appears that we have no observer comments yet, so it seems we've put off the audience as well. Shame, as I would have thought topazg would have a comment or two - he seems to like these kind of weird fuseki
Re: Teamovich 2
Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 4:50 am
by SinK
My nomination:
Stick with the plan offer them a diagonal. 4-4 makes more sense now that they've played a weird, high move that I'm unfamiliar with. The flexibility allows for maximum options after White responds.
BIC (I assume this means black team? I don't know the acronym...):
3 moves in and this game already rates about 9/10 on my bizarro meter.
I'm inclined to think a 4-4 play is inconsistent with tengen, since the idea of tengen is to fight but a 4-4 wants to build influence. Also white played an interesting move, so us playing a simple move seems to send white the wrong message. It's like they called our bluff and we folded. If we wanted a simple game, tengen seems like the wrong choice to start off with.
With that said though, I really have no idea what a good move is at this point. I'm torn between just taking their corner out from under them, or playing a 3-4 in one of the open corners. Also, my impression is that the top will be more important than the right given the direction that white played their stone, so I'd prefer d16 to q4 for a 4-4.
I think my choice is this (a being the other move I was considering):
if they take the corner we approach from the left and force white to live in the corner or run... right out towards our tengen stone! Maybe 7 at x to threaten their eye space a bit more severly, but I don't like white playing at 7 in that case. Still eyeing the invasion at a soon.
threeve wrote:BIC (I assume this means black team? I don't know the acronym...):
BIC/WIC = Black/White Internal Chat
Re: Teamovich 2
Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 11:29 pm
by Mnemonic
I may not be able to post in the next few dayes, manly because my computer fried (meaning: I empied a pint of beer over it and it doesn't work now ) I will try to get a new one until friday (mainly because I have an exame that day and all my learning matirials are saved on that harddrive. Now I know the reason why prewios generations valiued "paper" (<- the new sarcastic meaning) )
(I apologise for my spelling mistakes . This is what it looks like when I don't ues correction)
After white 2, white has a good corner, and black's stone is too close to white's strength. Also, white is too settled for my tastes, as we're looking for a fighting game.
This isn't a bad move, but I feel like this is too territorial. I'd actually really like a 4-4 stone in this corner, though. 4-4 stones get influence, which helps a great deal in fighting (influence != moyo). We don't want to be playing for large moyos, but influence is great for the fights we're going to start .
We're going for this move, it prevents white from developing their 5-4 stone along its primary direction of play (the right side). It's also high, which will help us in fights to come.
Reading practice is good.
is the only choice black has. It makes miai out of the two corners that are left and, because of its symmetrical nature, makes it hard to exploit. Following the corner-sides-center doctrine I think the correct play would be at (a), but then white would get a nice looking moyo by playing in the other corner. Therefore I propose 
This is also a 
) I will try to get a new one until friday (mainly because I have an exame that day and all my learning matirials are saved on that harddrive. Now I know the reason why prewios generations valiued "paper"