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Re: New go words

Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 3:55 pm
by daal
hyperpape wrote:I know a bit about Chomsky, but I guess I'm missing something. Why are we invoking him?


Not to go off topic, but since BaghwanB who is noted for using a middle name to hint at his thoughts, middle-named himself "Noam," I just chimed in with the vaguely humorous thought in the back of my mind that generative grammar might imply that there is a universal underlying concept for "aji" and "shimari," and so on. It probably doesn't, but I guess I wasn't taking the subject too seriously. ;-)

Re: New go words

Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 4:04 am
by hyperpape
Popular opinion to the contrary, I'm ok with not taking everything seriously. I just thought I was missing something and was curious.

Re: New go words

Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 4:21 am
by gaius
Don't forget the good old armpit nudge!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$|.............
$$|..X,X....O...
$$|.....1.......
$$|.............
$$|.............
$$|-------------[/go]

Re: New go words

Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 4:25 am
by hyperpape
gaius wrote:armpit nudge
Yeah, I don't think I could say that one.

Re: New go words

Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 9:05 am
by BaghwanB
daal wrote:
hyperpape wrote:I know a bit about Chomsky, but I guess I'm missing something. Why are we invoking him?


Not to go off topic, but since BaghwanB who is noted for using a middle name to hint at his thoughts, middle-named himself "Noam," I just chimed in with the vaguely humorous thought in the back of my mind that generative grammar might imply that there is a universal underlying concept for "aji" and "shimari," and so on. It probably doesn't, but I guess I wasn't taking the subject too seriously. ;-)



100% correct Daal. Linguistics is one of my "hobby" studies so that seem appropriate for cross-language terms. For those not in the know, Dr. Chomsky did tons of linguistic research before he became known for his political views.

Back on the go words front, a few more terms for common shapes would be fun. When I started playing we'd make up ridiculous ones for imaginary "good" formations we'd put on the board (like the "reclining wombat" and "furious george").
Any suggestions for useful or humorous additions?

Bruce "Namer of Things" Young

Re: New go words

Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 9:48 am
by Violence
Also from my club's lore:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Black move 2 elsewhere
$$|.....3.......
$$|...,OXO..,...
$$|....X1XO.....
$$|.....XOX.....
$$|.............
$$|-------------[/go]


Results in
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc A pwnnuki.
$$|.....O.......
$$|...,O.O..,...
$$|....XO.O.....
$$|.....XOX.....
$$|.............
$$|-------------[/go]

Re: New go words

Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 9:59 am
by topazg
BaghwanB wrote:...(like the "reclining wombat" and "furious george")...


That's really cool :)

I have the "rabid wombat", for those moves when you've suddenly dune something wrong, and decide the only way to rectify the situation is to go on an insane psychotic overplay rampage.

Re: New go words

Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 10:09 am
by daniel_the_smith
hyperpape wrote:
gaius wrote:armpit nudge
Yeah, I don't think I could say that one.


I call it the armpit hit...

Re: New go words

Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 10:21 am
by mw42
I think there are many English terms that can and are substituted for the Japanese/Korean terms. I just think must people prefer to use oriental terms because it is part of the culture of the game.

Here is your example sentence rendered in English: "My knight's move is here to prevent him from making a framework from his [corner] enclosure."

Re: New go words

Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 10:38 am
by hyperpape
daal wrote:Not to go off topic, but since BaghwanB who is noted for using a middle name to hint at his thoughts, middle-named himself "Noam," I just chimed in with the vaguely humorous thought in the back of my mind that generative grammar might imply that there is a universal underlying concept for "aji" and "shimari," and so on. It probably doesn't, but I guess I wasn't taking the subject too seriously. ;-)
It took me a bit, but I realized you probably don't want Chomsky, you want Jerry Fodor, who infamously has argued that we have a stock of innate concepts in the language of thought, and that this even includes concepts like carburetor. Aji and shimari would also be included.

Re: New go words

Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 12:45 pm
by jts
mw42 wrote:I think there are many English terms that can and are substituted for the Japanese/Korean terms. I just think must people prefer to use oriental terms because it is part of the culture of the game.

Here is your example sentence rendered in English: "My knight's move is here to prevent him from making a framework from his [corner] enclosure."


That, of course, couldn't possibly confuse a newbie.

Re: New go words

Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 9:55 am
by mw42
jts wrote:
mw42 wrote:I think there are many English terms that can and are substituted for the Japanese/Korean terms. I just think must people prefer to use oriental terms because it is part of the culture of the game.

Here is your example sentence rendered in English: "My knight's move is here to prevent him from making a framework from his [corner] enclosure."


That, of course, couldn't possibly confuse a newbie.


I detect sarcasm, but I don't quite understand. The English terms should be much easier to understand for native-English players. For example:

Sensei: This is a good move because it enlarges your moyo.
Student: Moyo?
Sensei: Territorial framework.

So, why not just substitute moyo for territorial framework or just framework?

Re: New go words

Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 11:30 am
by jts
I just outright deny that "framework" means anything to anyone who hasn't played a lot of go already. ("Territorial framework" at least points in the right direction, but it still is quite vague; it's about as clear as "my moyo, which is for territory." I've never actually heard anyone refer to a moyo as a territorial framework; it's either moyo or framework.)

You learn what a moyo is by, first, having a bunch of examples of moyos shown to you (this is a moyo; this is a moyo; this is a moyo); second, by seeing games where a moyo develops into territory, or into a favorable fight; third, by getting a sense of better and worse moyo-building moves. Learning what the thing is is a slow process that will irritate some people and fascinate others. Whether you call it a moyo, a framework, or a territorial framework doesn't really signify.

Similarly, we could call tesuji "handy moves". The difficult thing about understanding these moves, though, isn't that te and suji are Japanese, whereas handy and moves are English; it's that learning to spot a tesuji is hard.

Other English terms may help a little, but bring unwanted associations with them. "Knight's move," for an English speaker who plays chess, conveys the information about shape that keima conveys to a Japanese speaker who plays shogi. But for a beginner, it also suggests that the go pieces move about the board. At the unconscious level, it pushes the mind to things like "K/B exchange" or "knight's tour" or "defending pawns" rather than to "cutting at the waist." Keima gives us a clean slate on which we can draw new connections.

Re: New go words

Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 12:23 pm
by Mnemonic
I don't really get why people try to translate everything.
    1. You usually can't get the full meaning anyway
    2. If people are interested in something they should be able to learn the 5 or 10 extra words that you really need
    3. Every sport/hobby/profession has their own words, why are we trying to change that for go
    4. You don't really need all those words to teach beginners. For example:

When I teach beginners I usually only start with one foreign word: atari. First of because I teach atarigo and second of because there just is no real good translation in English (or German for that matter). When asked I usually translate it as check (Which is kind of wrong because that would suggest that it is very urgent to save that group, which usually isn’t the case. But we are playing atarigo, so I don't really worry about that) Of course I explain that atair means that one of your groups only has one liberty left, but spelling that out every time quickly gets annoying when you're trying to review games.

Once someone is above the complete beginner stage (starting to play their first game on 19x19) I introduce them to other work I found helpful like: tesuji, tenuki, moyo, sente and gote.

Re: New go words

Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 12:54 pm
by John Fairbairn
I've never actually heard anyone refer to a moyo as a territorial framework; it's either moyo or framework.)


So, you've never read my stuff!!! Shame on you!

There is a lot of sense in what you say, but one also has to guard against being a frog in a well. There's moyo, jimoyo and omoyo, and kakoi. One major problem with adopting Japanese terms in the west is that they are badly misused (e.g. yose for endgame), so we end up with different meanings floating around, depending on how well the user knows Japanese.

Another problem with adopting Japanese is that the grammar gets lost, so we end up with made-up grammar such as "to make sabaki" or the somewhat nonsensical "to tenuki". We also get made-up and varying pronunciations.

Yet another problem in the past, and maybe still to a degree today, is that some people with long memories don't like the Japanese. Using Japanese terms offends them.

That's not much of a problem nowadays but it's been replaced by another one. The Koreans are very chippy about people in the west using Japanese terms, and would much prefer us to use Korean. My sense is that they've realised that is a futile exercise, but the problem still rears its head.

One benefit of saying things in English is that while they may mean little to a novice they at least sound welcoming. For every putative negative association with chess you can probably adduce several positive ones such as "this guy is trying to communicate with me" or "he's not a nerd". Jargon is offputting, but it's possibly twice as offputting if it's foreign as well.

There are several other aspects to consider, such as choosing a lingua franca for westerners who do not have a native command of Englsh, but the upshot is that the whole business is a mess and will probably remain so for a long time, and each writer or teacher has to try to make a judgement on how much jargon to use, and in what form, depending on his audience. He will probably fail a good percentage of the time.

This is actually not a problem exclusive to us. The Japanese have been down this road. We may usefully refer to the very long article 術語をいかにすべきか? (What should we do with technicaal terms?) in Kido, Vol. 37, No. 12 (1961). This was the transcription of a round-table discussion led by the Kido editor. It involved all the top go writers of the time, plus a couple of top pros. It was essentially this meeting that determined that go terms came to be written mostly in katakana.

To give a flavour of what they were talking about, here is part of Hayashi's introductory remarks.

"Voices were raised several years ago saying we must somehow standardise technical terms. Recently, new people have started writing game commentaries and the problems of technical terms have again come back to the boil. Almost 500 books have been published since the end of the war, and although some may feel it is too late, I thought that if we could form a research group again, as you all are deeply versed in technical terms it would be a group that has some authority. Today’s meeting is the first step and I would like to hear your various opinions. Takagawa sensei was also meant to be here today, but circumstances meant he could not come. He will give us the benefit of his opinions on another occasion.

"The problems of technical terms can broadly be divided into two: the problem of standardisation of terms and then the problem of the characters used. At present there is also the problem of whether or not technical terms are being used inaccurately, but I think the most thoroughly confusing issue is the use of characters. There are people who use old-style kanji and there are others who use hiragana, and there are also some people who use katakana. Also, even among those who use katakana, there are complexities to do with declensions and at what point you put the katakana. I believe it would be a step towards reaching the ideal state if a grammar, as it were, could be standardised and if all writers would follow it as much as possible.

"One further thing where we must think about the future is how to handle the case of translating the terms into foreign languages, but, for the time being, of these three problems I would like to hear your opinions of the first two, fundamental, problems."

One speaker, Mihori Sho, who will be known as the reporter who covered many famous games, also showed some foresight as regards the international audience. He said:

"I am the one who knows least among those here, and I have come expecting to learn a great deal today. But if I were to state my general view to get things started, ultimately one kind of technical term is, first of all, those where they give a name to the meaning of the stone just played. A second type is those named according to their shape. These can be understood from the situation. I also believe that, as regards the problem of characters Mr Hayashi has just mentioned, using katakana is best, since the [government] restriction of kanji is now being welcomed everywhere. To take the characters for osaeru [to block], there are as many as four proper ones: . 約、押、抑and 捺. I have some sympathy for using the old characters, from before the restrictions, as Inoue Takuji [a famous pre-war go writer] often did in order to convey a meaning or a nuance, but we have a mission to think internationally and so I think it is surely better not to use the old characters."

Before the war, the typical amateur go fan who bought books and magazines was pretty strong. He was at home with technical words, although, as the above discussion also showed, pros and amateurs had (and still have) rather different vocabularies and usages. After the war, there was a new audience who were much weaker, and often couldn't read the old characters (or properly understand the old grammar used before the war). This meant a big change and the introduction of quite a few terms that were of little use to strong players but were necessary for beginners. Under this pressure, too, some terms such as joseki and tesuji and hane became fuzzy, at least among amateurs.

Then foreigners came along and just made the situation worse, not just by being even fuzzier, but fussier as well.

What to do about such a to-do? There is wisdom in the old rhyme (seek and ye shall find):

Fuzzy wuzzy was a bear,
Fuzzy wuzzy had no hair,
Fuzzy wuzzy didn't care.
Fuzzy wuzzy wasn't fussy, wuz 'e?