Life In 19x19

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[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . a , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

IMO, any of these plays are too passive, too concentrated on the left side. I lean towards a pincer myself, such as "a".

According to GoGoD, by we are already in uncharted professional territory.

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[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . ? . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . ? ? . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . d , . . . . . ? ? . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . c . . . . . . . ? . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Expanding the search slightly, with a black stone anywhere in both of the marked regions, white plays:
a: 5 times
b: 3 times
c: 1 time
d: 1 time

When you say "pros" - with this move you mostly mean "Takemiya." Although it looks like Park Jie-un and Yamashita Keigo have experimented with it some too, and it shows up (in my ragtag database) isolatedly a few times by Kong Jie, Chang Hao, etc. But yeah, I'm pretty sure it's famous as being an invention of Takemiya specifically for the sanrensei.

And geez, I have a lot of dupes. Four of my results for this search are the same game between Daniel Chou and Gary Shen at the 2008 U.S. Go Congress. Need to organize...

Ooooh, this game is interesting - Fujisawa Shuko played it as WHITE... in a very very different situation than usual. Black was Yoda Norimoto, the year was 1992.

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[go]$$Wc Fujisawa Shuko vs Yoda Norimoto, 1992-06-25
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Hey, does dailyjoseki.com make any assumptions about order of play or anything? If I pass, then put in the upper left position above, the results make it obvious that this game isn't included among them. I find it hard to believe I have a pro game record SO RARE that GoGod doesn't have it...

dailyjoseki.com is insensitive to color; if you put in the position with colors swapped it will show you the same results, just with the colors swapped. IOW, all positions are properly rotated, mirrored, and color-swapped before being aggregated. I haven't checked, but I'd be astonished if the game you post wasn't included among them, it would be one of the examples keeping the star point stones from being completely opaque...

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[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . M
$$ | . . . . B . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . ,[/go]

Color insensitive, according to the latest edition of GoGoD, 76% of the time a player plays this kosumi he has a stone at .

And yes, GoGoD has ethanb's game between Yoda and Fujisawa.

*looks at the opacity* my website thinks it's present 77.1% of the time. Depending on how big of a box you searched for, I probably found a few more or less games. Eventually I will write something to let me list all games for comparison. It's trivial, but I'm working on getting other features production ready at the moment.

It does appear partially transparent for you, right?

Magicwand wrote:

$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

i will try something new. hopefully this will give him some discomfort.
i think i am strong enough to invent my own joseky.

main reason why i played this move:
1. i dont want him to feel comfortable. if i answer simple knight move then i am following his lead.
2. his inexperience will give me edge when we are fighting unfamiliar battle.
3. i love trying something new. and i think it is good move.

The kosumi is interesting. I've looked at a few of Magicwand's Malkovich handicap games, and was interested in his psychological explanations for moves. Of course, if you are giving a sizable handicap, some speculation on how to lure your opponent into a variation favorable to you is probably required. Statements like, "oh, I really hope he plays here" are expected in that situation. But its interesting to see that Magicwand still thinks this way in even games. Only part of him seems to play the board rather than the player. It's quite fascinating.

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[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . a . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . 9 . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

On a rarity scale of 1 (common) - 10 (Seo Bongsoo-defeating-Cho Hunhyun rare) I'd say E5 is a 7 in terms of how often I see it in my games. It's played here and there, but I don't know it too well other than that Takemiya was a fan of it (I think F5 is also a Takemiya innovation...). Usually there's a stone around 'a' to accompany , but at least it goes well with .

Just going to play the simplest move; simple is good.

This feels too submissive.

Black can't hane underneath at 4 because 1 covers the cut at 'a' for white:

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[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 a . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 3 O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . 6 2 7 . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So black is left with something like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . @ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 3 O . . 7 . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . 4 2 6 . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...which works too well with D14.

I was basing it on a search using my copy of GoGoD, searching the exact area shown in the diagram below. This gives me 307 results. I then expanded the search one column farther to the right and compared how many results I got, and then tried to filter out the results where a stone was in that column but not on the fourth line (there weren't many). Meanwhile, your site gives 368 results for the corner position, which is pretty close to the number I can get if I reign in my search area to be closer to the corner. So we're basically measuring it two different ways, but our numbers are pretty close.

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[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . B . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . .[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X 1 a X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 0 8 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Seems ok for both if white had a side star point, as white would be over concentrated. But without a side star point, I think this is wonderful for white, it looks like black invaded way too early...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . 5 X 1 . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 6 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think I prefer white here, too. I wonder what Araban will do?

White could block the other side, but this seems to use that 5-5 stone better. If white blocks this way, pros almost always play the first diagram.

So, I don't think 3-3 is right. But Araban can give me like 2? 3? stones so I'm probably wrong.

Yeah, that sounds about right. I'd expect my algorithm to find a few games with stones in the area you have blank down the left side. So it makes sense. (*checks* Yeah, about 3% of the games it found have a stone on the left hand star point in your diagram, for example.)

what i expect.
if he jumps in...he will regret it.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X 1 . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Obvious move is obvious.

Looks like he wants to build a massive framework (which was already kind of hinted with E5) on the left. He's inviting me to invade. I could play calmly and let him cultivate it while I build points everywhere else and have it be a big territory vs. big territory game, but that's boring.