Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 1

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Re: Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 1

Post by Bill Spight »

Joaz Banbeck wrote:It appears that the concensus of 'b' is correct, and Gaius came very close to the exact answer:

Dictionary of Modern Fuseki wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Problem 1 wrong answer
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . X . 8 7 . . . |
$$ | . O O , O . X . . , . . . . . X 1 5 . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . 4 2 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . 6 . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...after 10, black's stones are thick and their influence is overwhelming...white needs one more move to secure the corner.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Problem 1 right answer
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 7 . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . X 0 6 5 3 . . |
$$ | . O O , O . X . . , . . . . 9 X 4 . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Problem 1 right answer continued
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . X X X O O 3 . |
$$ | . O O , O . X . . , . . . . O X X 1 . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...white's territory is better than black's influence.


They don't mention anything about overconcentration, but I think that it is implied here.


:b2: in the first right answer diagram is not good, IMO. :)
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 1

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

Bill Spight wrote:...
:b2: in the first right answer diagram is not good, IMO. :)


I could believe that; for it does seem to lend itself to over-concentration. But what is the alternative?
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Bill Spight
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Re: Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 1

Post by Bill Spight »

Joaz Banbeck wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:...
:b2: in the first right answer diagram is not good, IMO. :)


I could believe that; for it does seem to lend itself to over-concentration. But what is the alternative?


In that quadrant, R-15 looks good, to secure the corner. :)
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 1

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

Bill Spight wrote:
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:...
:b2: in the first right answer diagram is not good, IMO. :)


I could believe that; for it does seem to lend itself to over-concentration. But what is the alternative?


In that quadrant, R-15 looks good, to secure the corner. :)


You would allow this?



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Problem 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O , O . X . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Bill Spight
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Re: Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 1

Post by Bill Spight »

Joaz Banbeck wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:In that quadrant, R-15 looks good, to secure the corner. :)


You would allow this?



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Problem 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O , O . X . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Sure. :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Problem 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O , O . X . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 4 X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I like the exchange, :w3: - :b4:. :) Black's right side is strengthened.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Problem 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O , O . X . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 2 , X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Hmmm. Maybe this is better than securing the corner.

Magicwand, do you have an opinion about this play? :)
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Re: Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 1

Post by emerus »

Bill Spight wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Problem 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O , O . X . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 2 , X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Hmmm. Maybe this is better than securing the corner.

Magicwand, do you have an opinion about this play? :)


My pro game collection reveals that this diagram is how black handles the position.
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Re: Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 1

Post by Magicwand »

Bill Spight wrote:Hmmm. Maybe this is better than securing the corner.
Magicwand, do you have an opinion about this play? :)


i have seen many different variation on the board..
most of them are joseki in my opinion.
what you suggest sounds good also.

my preference was as below.
i like black's influence but it doesnt mean black is better. :D
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Problem 1 right answer continued
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . X X X O O 3 . |
$$ | . O O , O . X . . , . . . . O X X 1 . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 1

Post by cyclops »

CnP wrote:I've got no chance ! but
I like the the probe at a - in disagreement with all the much stronger players :lol: :lol:
Mainly because it reminds me a lot of an example in Strategic concepts of Go (G6), e.g. page 55. Force black to settle his shape then take advantage or preserve aji or something .. clearly probes aren't always right though.. still I like trying new things.

I was on your side. Maybe we made both the same mistake.
If the corner were like this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ --------------+
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . X . . . . |
$$ . . . , X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . , X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |[/go]

a probe would have been probably correct. The difference is that here B is stable in the corner. A probe would establish some aji and would be left alone after being played and answered. Even if it comes to nothing there is hardly any loss. In Joaz' position the corner is not stable and the invasion should produce some profit. Tenuki before life is a loss. So it isnt a probe but a true invasion. Probes might come before reductions but reductions come before invasions. If I understood correctly.
Our/my kyu eyes don't see enough difference between the obviously distinct shimari's.
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