Life In 19x19

entropi wrote:I personally don't like wishing luck to my opponent because I find it slightly hypocritical

Agreed, but I do want my opponent to have a good game, and I hope he enjoys it even if I win.

Dusk Eagle wrote:I do generally type "hello" and "thx", but I know I wouldn't go to the bother of doing it if ... I were sick...

Well enough to play a game of go, but typing "thanks" will do you in?

daal wrote:Agreed, but I do want my opponent to have a good game, and I hope he enjoys it even if I win.

Sure! Wishing good game is absolutely ok for me too, I think it is independent of winning/losing anyway.

I think it's also that go players tend to think of the game a little more seriously. This includes wishing eachother a good game, then thanking of the opponent afterwards, win or lose.

It's not always with words. I've played with Koreans and Chinese before. Since I don't know their language and they don't know mine, it's hard to say much of anything. But they're still able to understand that basic bit of courtesy.

The words themselves are completely devoid of meaning. The sentiment is there without them.

Online, though ... it's disheartening how few people feel this way.

Greeting each other before the game is a silly human custom, but I think bathing is MUCH worse. It wastes more time.

hyperpape wrote:Greeting each other before the game is a silly human custom, but I think bathing is MUCH worse. It wastes more time.

Of course, if you are a computer bathing could be very dangerous.

gowan wrote:I wouldn't say they are devoid of meaning, they humanize the proceedings.

This is not my impression.
Half of the time when people say 'hi' or 'bye' or 'gg' or 'thx' or whatever, I have the feeling that this is purely automatic, and really meaningless. A batch file could have been used instead and convey the same meaning.

I feel warmer and fuzzier if somebody actually makes the effort to type something resembling a sentence, like 'Hello, have a nice game'. At least they convey they care enough to make some effort and type a few letters. But even that can be meaningless, people just typing stuff out of habit, or to appear 'polite' and take the high road. To me, its the same as the whole silly mystique of people saying 'kifu' instead of 'game record' or 'moku' instead of 'point' and so on.

Personally, if there is something to say, and the opponents respect each other and the game, the conversation will arise organically, and then it will be meaningful. You make friends this way. But expecting, maybe even *demanding* that people say 'hi' to you and 'thx' after the game - you just being annoying. I think that pleasantries for the sake of pleasantries are meaningless.

Having said that, I try to always answer to 'hi' and 'bye' and 'gg' and all that, with the same cryptic and meaningless abbreviations. Why? Because it is easier this way, and I really do not wish to offend those poor souls who place value on such stuff.

I agree with Bantari. After I had been playing on KGS for a while I started playing online chess. At first I was surprised, and slightly irritated, to find that no-one else ever said "hi", "thx" or similar (and I'm not talking about blitz games). But then I realised that, since these exchanges on KGS are virtually meaningless, there is nothing wrong with the alternative convention of saying nothing. Actually I prefer it, because I dislike having to type meaningless letters just in case my opponent should think me rude.

Bantari wrote:
This is not my impression.
Half of the time when people say 'hi' or 'bye' or 'gg' or 'thx' or whatever, I have the feeling that this is purely automatic, and really meaningless. A batch file could have been used instead and convey the same meaning.

Try making the comparison to real life. Is it meaningless when your wife or co-worker says "good morning"? Would you rather people not say "have a nice day"? These mindless utterings are also automatic and in the case of sales-people, even forced, but they have an effect on you and it's usually a positive one. Imagine that instead of saying "hi" and "thanks", people would say "kiss my a**" and "get lost." I prefer nice, and those who don't want to be nice can kiss my a**.


BTW @Joaz

noooO00b! :p Lolz

I suppose I have a slightly different take on it. Cultural differences mean a lot here I think, and ways of saying hello, thanks, and so on vary a lot between them, and also between people in the same culture. I have a fairly high confidence that I don't know enough about anyone else's preferences to assume anything based on their behaviour, so much like Chew I just go for assuming good faith.

If someone says "hi" to me, I'll respond, because I think it's courteous. If they don't respond to me, I'll assume either they can't, or that they don't think it's a polite thing to do, or that they think it's hypocritical, or whatever they want to think really, it's not going to bug me. I would assume either they don't realise I would feel that way, or that they are on a client that means they can't respond. It's possible they are choosing to be deliberately rude / offensive, but I consider it unlikely, and even if they were it's their problem, not mine.

I tend to start my games with "Have a great game " because a) I actually enjoy great games, and b) I just like being irrationally friendly to unknown people online - I think it sets a good first impression and a pleasant atmosphere, and that's something I like. The irony is, whilst I do wish them a good game, I'd be kidding myself if I denied that I'm also selfishly doing it so it sets a tone I personally feel more comfortable in.

Live and let live I guess

Just my 2p / 2c

Bantari wrote:Half of the time when people say 'hi' or 'bye' or 'gg' or 'thx' or whatever, I have the feeling that this is purely automatic, and really meaningless. A batch file could have been used instead and convey the same meaning.

Great feature request. Pls can KGS provide automation or scripting features so that I can give a standard greeting and conclusion without the tedious need to type it!

I am one of the poor souls bantari mentions.

I remember a chess game of Nigel Short where he claimed victory because his opponent Cheparinov rudely refused handshaking. Here it is: http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=4402


Do you expect a greeting/handshaking/good_game_wishing/... from your opponent in a over the board tournament game?
If yes, then why not online?
If no, I suppose it is because you find it "meaningless". Then the next question:

Do you expect your child/wife/colleague/... to greet you by saying for example good morning?
If yes, why do you think "good morning" is more meaningfull than "good game"?
If no, again I suppose it is because you find it "meaningless". Then the next question:

What kind of "meaning" do you expect at everything you do/every word you say in your daily life?

Is expecting a kind of mechanical meaning from every single word and action in your daily life meaningful itself?

daal wrote:Try making the comparison to real life. Is it meaningless when your wife or co-worker says "good morning"?

It often is meaningless. Just canned responses.

Try answering a "How are you?" with a "Not too well this morning..." Many people won't even notice, or never intended to start up a real conversation beyond the canned responses.

xed_over wrote:

daal wrote:Try making the comparison to real life. Is it meaningless when your wife or co-worker says "good morning"?

It often is meaningless. Just canned responses.

Try answering a "How are you?" with a "Not too well this morning..." Many people won't even notice, or never intended to start up a real conversation beyond the canned responses.

That is exactly what I meant by "mechanical meaning" in my previous post.
You are trying to give it a mechanical meaning. Of course "how are you" is not a question that expects an answer. Of course it does not intend to transmit or receive any information.

It has a different kind of social meaning. It helps to some poor souls feel slightly better. That is the meaning of it, nothing more.

IMO, when "politeness" becomes a protocol, it loses meaning. In other words, if the expectation is for you to say, "Thanks for the game", it doesn't mean much when the other person says it, because they are just saying it because of the protocol. If I had my way, I think that the correct "protocol" would be to not have a protocol, and simply be genuine with one another. In other words, I would prefer it if people just typed what they wanted to.

Because of this, I am not offended at all when somebody does not say "thanks for the game" at the end of the game, and just leaves. Apparently, their true feeling was one of wanting to leave without saying anything.

If I want to force somebody to adhere to some social standard against their will, does it really mean anything? I don't really think so, myself.

hyperpape wrote:WMS: If my opponent starts a review then leaves, wouldn't it be better if control reverts to me?

Well, it's not your review. You can always open your own if you want one. In some cases it would make sense, but what if your opponent went through and marked out his variations, then left intending to finish reviewing the game later. Then he comes back and finds his review is filled with *YOUR* variations, and he's lost track of what he was thinking about. See the point?

So probably the right thing would be to make it easier for you to start your own review.