Life In 19x19

topazg wrote:Also, the descent by White can sometimes be a mistake:

Essentially, the descent by White is only wrong if black blocked on the wrong side in the first place. Assuming black blocked correctly, the descent is rarely, rarely, rarely wrong.

Horibe wrote:

topazg wrote:Also, the descent by White can sometimes be a mistake:

Essentially, the descent by White is only wrong if black blocked on the wrong side in the first place. Assuming black blocked correctly, the descent is rarely, rarely, rarely wrong.

Why would we assume Black blocked correctly, if he's also willing to play the hane?

topazg wrote:

Horibe wrote:

topazg wrote:Also, the descent by White can sometimes be a mistake:

Essentially, the descent by White is only wrong if black blocked on the wrong side in the first place. Assuming black blocked correctly, the descent is rarely, rarely, rarely wrong.

Why would we assume Black blocked correctly, if he's also willing to play the hane?

I don't. But the tendency is to think they made two mistakes. The mental ego commentary would be "This guy is so weak he blocked on the wrong side, and now he makes the hane mistake - watch me punish him with the descent...oh, he connected"

It is helpful to realize this. Your post suggests that the hane can be part of a good strategy. I think this is rare. You are right, however, that it can help repair a previous error.

Chew Terr wrote:CSam: Yeah, sometimes it can be hard to take advice well, even with the best of intentions. Maybe just say "Hey, mind looking at a couple things from the game?" so they can say no. You can always mention in advance that if your opponent has time, you'd love to go over the game a little after.

I'm basically dittoing the above.

In general, I'd say if you are testing the waters at a new club this kind of "I wonder about this..." approach may be seen as less confrontational (or smug). But it still takes someone kind of testy about it to refuse offered advice so I don't think you were out of line at all.

Bruce "H(uffy)R(esponse) Manager" Young

It's like losing a ladder game on SC2, and having the guy PM you immediately afterwards suggesting what you did wrong. He may have the best of intentions, but I'm still gonna block him.

Horibe wrote:I don't. But the tendency is to think they made two mistakes. The mental ego commentary would be "This guy is so weak he blocked on the wrong side, and now he makes the hane mistake - watch me punish him with the descent...oh, he connected"

It is helpful to realize this. Your post suggests that the hane can be part of a good strategy. I think this is rare. You are right, however, that it can help repair a previous error.

I agree with pretty much all of this - I do think it's valuable to be aware of. If Black blocks on the wrong side, knowing that the hane may be a better choice than the descent is useful I think. I only posted it because it was a valid variation that has cropped up in a few games I've encountered and it hadn't yet been posted here.

CSamurai wrote:After the game, even though he won, I pointed out that...

Seems like a couple people missed this little tidbit.

I watched a game review at this year's congress where the pro suggested the hane as optimal play. I think there are a lot of situations where it is correct.

sixko wrote:

CSamurai wrote:After the game, even though he won, I pointed out that...

Seems like a couple people missed this little tidbit.

Did you see the part where it was a 3-stone handicap? If I win with a 3-stone handicap, I'd be glad for a review from the winner, and even more glad if he voluntarily explained my mistakes, rather than making me grovel.

Anyway, it sounds like your local go club is a bunch of grouches (possibly compounded by the fact that they thought you stopped playing go, and then when you came back you're much stronger than they are).

jts wrote:If I win with a 3-stone handicap, I'd be glad for a review from the winner..

So your saying you'd be glad for a review from yourself? Not that theres anything wrong with that.

sixko wrote:

jts wrote:If I win with a 3-stone handicap, I'd be glad for a review from the winner..

So your saying you'd be glad for a review from yourself? Not that theres anything wrong with that.

Ho ho, you got me there.

To clarify, I was white in the 3 stone game. Black made an easy joseki mistake, and still won by 10 points or so because I'm horrible at dealing with handicap. So I pointed out that if he had handled the corner correctly, I wouldn't have even been that close.

Still, it is different than playing a ladder game, Sol.

No rank was involved, we were at club. We smiled, and chatted, and said hello before the game. I'm not precisely a random scrub online when playing a person, and I thought that was the point of club, was to get together, play, and learn.

If it's not, I can play plenty of engaging, interesting games online, without having to drag myself out of hermitude and actually face people.

In short, why should I bother going to club, if not to discuss games and learn things?

CSamurai wrote:...

In short, why should I bother going to club, if not to discuss games and learn things?

I guess the social interaction is a turn-on for some people. I would say it's as simple as, if you don't like going, don't go. If you like going, go.

CSamurai wrote:In short, why should I bother going to club, if not to discuss games and learn things?

Everyone goes for different reasons. Some people do just want games without much discussion. They just might not like playing online. Others do go for discussing.

As you go more often, you figure out who you want to play with.

I only went to "new" clubs twice before and both times we had discussions on the game.

My take on etiquette at a club is everyone has their own reasons for being there. If your opponent is there wanting to learn and understand his mistakes, he'll no doubt ask for a review or at least ask about some of his mistakes. If he doesn't, you can always offer to "shall we go over the game" / " would you like to discuss the game", which comes across less "I'm better than you so you ought to listen to my Go Sagery" than "Would you like me to review the game". People's pride can be sensitive, particularly after a defeat, and a lot of people find their mistakes pointed out immediately afterwards as having their nose rubbed in the fact that they suck too much. Maybe they shouldn't feel that way, but it's certainly pretty common.

Unsought advice is rarely heeded anyway in my experience, so take it that if they don't ask, they probably don't want to know. Just play another game with someone, and ask when you feel you got a bad result somewhere if your opponent had any better suggestions.

It's also possible that coming in and beating everyone and / or offering advice (particularly where you lost) may have meant you come across as some smug know-it-all, which could easily get their hackles up. Again, an unreasonable judgement on their part perhaps, but first impressions are so very important. Social politics eh?