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How to Fail at Go (5k advice on fundamental ideas.)

https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=3639

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Re: How to Fail at Go (5k advice on fundamental ideas.)

Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 6:36 am
by Shaddy
topazg wrote:
Toge wrote:I wonder is this always so?

This diagram is from high-dan game played on KGS. If white were to reduce aji in bottom right corner, which would be the best move? First move that came into my mind was "a", but it seems to be the worst, since it doesn't eliminate stone. C is better than A, but best seems to be B.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ . . . . . . b X O . . |
$$ . O . . . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . . O a O X O . |
$$ . . . . . . . . c . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------[/go]


Cute example :)

In this situation, I'd never play "a" out of the principle of it not reducing any black liberties, and because I hate corner aji, I'd play "c" almost without question. However, you're quite right, with further reading, "b" is clearly better as that single stone can still never amount to anything - it would have to extend to be effective, and it can't do that without White playing to the left and leaving Black with nothing he can achieve - so solidly capturing the two stones is clearly better.

I wonder about this position:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ . . . . . . c X O . . |
$$ . O . . . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . . O . O X O . |
$$ . . . . . . . a X b . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------[/go]


My choice _now_ would be "a"


Still c. (actually, moreso than before.) Reading says black can't live in the corner.

Re: How to Fail at Go (5k advice on fundamental ideas.)

Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 6:44 am
by topazg
Shaddy wrote:
Still c. (actually, moreso than before.) Reading says black can't live in the corner.


Damnit, me too now. My problem is I can't read ladders. It's really highlighted a corner-aji-phobia I have though, which is interesting.

Re: How to Fail at Go (5k advice on fundamental ideas.)

Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 7:42 am
by Bill Spight
Toge wrote:Expanding ideas!

If you're wondering where to attack and where to defend, the place which increases liberties most is the best one. Consider the following example. It's black's turn to play and he's wondering what to do with that white two-stone group. The white group has three liberties, or directions of development. Black's shape is weak too, perhaps he should repair it?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ . . . . . . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . . . .
$$ . . X . O . X . . .
$$ . . . X O X . . . .
$$ . . . . X . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . . . .
$$--------------------[/go]


OTOH, perhaps he should tenuki. :) Black has three more stones locally than White. If that is not enough, she has made a mistake. Do you see a Black mistake here?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Mistake?
$$ . . . . . . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . . . .
$$ . . X . O . X . . .
$$ . . . B O B . . . .
$$ . . . . X . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . . . .
$$--------------------[/go]


Well, it does look like one of the :bc: stones was a mistake, doesn't it? But is it so bad that Black needs to add another stone?

Toge wrote:How to best defend your groups? Given the choice, capturing cutting stones is nearly always better than defending in other ways.


No doubt. But those may not be the only options. Often, instead of capturing stones, it is better to play on the border of where it is possible for the opponent to save them. Then the opponent faces the difficult decision of whether to sacrifice them or not. :twisted:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ . . . . 1 . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . . . .
$$ . . X . O . X . . .
$$ . . . X O X . . . .
$$ . . . . X . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . . . .
$$--------------------[/go]


If I were forced to go after the White stones, my first thought would be the cap. :)

Think big.

Toge wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ . . . . . . . . . .
$$ . . . . X . . . . .
$$ . . X X . X X . . .
$$ . . . X . X . . . .
$$ . . . O X O . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . . . .
$$--------------------[/go]


This is how the board looks like after black captures. White's turn to play. Now he has the least amount of possibilities (aji) to attack black's group, because black stones have so many liberties!


Isn't this horrible for Black? Think of where White has been able to play with those four extra moves. :)

Re: How to Fail at Go (5k advice on fundamental ideas.)

Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 7:45 am
by Bill Spight
Toge wrote:I wonder is this always so?

This diagram is from high-dan game played on KGS. If white were to reduce aji in bottom right corner, which would be the best move? First move that came into my mind was "a", but it seems to be the worst, since it doesn't eliminate stone. C is better than A, but best seems to be B.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ . . . . . . b X O . . |
$$ . O . . . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . . O a O X O . |
$$ . . . . . . . . c . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . d . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ . . . . . . b X O . . |
$$ . O . . . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . . O a O X O . |
$$ . . . . . . . . c . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------[/go]


Gee, my first thought is "d". :)

Re: How to Fail at Go (5k advice on fundamental ideas.)

Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 7:46 am
by topazg
Bill Spight wrote:Isn't this horrible for Black? Think of where White has been able to play with those four extra moves. :)


It's funny, that was exactly my reaction. I've found myself doing that an awful lot - not just assessing how good the result looks for one side, but how many stones were expended by each side to create it. This was a really nice example (even though it was obviously created for a very different purpose).

Re: How to Fail at Go (5k advice on fundamental ideas.)

Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:09 am
by Bill Spight
CSamurai wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$. . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . 2 . . . .
$$. . . O 1 3 . . .
$$. . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . . . . . .[/go]


Black doesn't want ataried so he extends with a solid connection, before white gets the chance.


Small point.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$. . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . 2 4 . . .
$$. . . O 1 3 . . .
$$. . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . . . . . .[/go]


Generally, :b3: is not good, because is allows :w4:, which forms a hane at the head of two stones shape, which is good for White.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$. . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . 2 3 . . .
$$. . . O 1 . . . .
$$. . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . . . . . .[/go]


The hane back is often best. The point is, if Black is concerned with being connected, she should not normally start with the attachment, :b1:. :)

Re: How to Fail at Go (5k advice on fundamental ideas.)

Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 5:16 pm
by CSamurai
I think I'm going to give up on this little endeavor, if, for no other reason, everything I say is apparently wrong.

Granted, I know some of it was wrong, and I had intended only to demonstrate a situation where the move could possibly be used, not necessarily that it was the best move, or even a good move.


But, given that almost every diagram I've posted has been picked apart by those stronger than me, I'm going to chalk this one up to, why bother, and give it a miss.

Re: How to Fail at Go (5k advice on fundamental ideas.)

Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 7:01 pm
by CSamurai
I told myself I wasn't going to respond to every posted diagram that I had posted to try to demonstrate a concept, which someone responded to by showing how that wasn't the strongest move.

But I can't resist.

tapir wrote:
CSamurai wrote:How to Stay Connected.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Not connected
$$| . . . . . . .
$$| . . . . . . .
$$| . . X 1 . . .
$$| . . X O . . .
$$| . . X O . . .
$$| . . O X X . .
$$| . . O . . . .
$$| . . O . . . .[/go]




Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Connected
$$| . . . . . . .
$$| . . . . . . .
$$| . . X . 1 . .
$$| . . X O . . .
$$| . . X O . . .
$$| . . O X X . .
$$| . . O . . . .
$$| . . O . . . .[/go]


:)

PS Please try the board search on SL next time!


You're right. Next time I'll use...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Not connected
$$| . . . . . . .
$$| . . . . . . .
$$| . . . 1 . . .
$$| . . X O . . .
$$| . . X O . . .
$$| . . O X X . .
$$| . . O . . . .
$$| . . O . . . .[/go]


to set up the shape I wanted to demonstrate. Or I would if I felt like there would be a next time, but I'm just not that interested any more.

Bill Spight wrote:
CSamurai wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$. . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . 2 . . . .
$$. . . O 1 3 . . .
$$. . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . . . . . .[/go]


Black doesn't want ataried so he extends with a solid connection, before white gets the chance.


Small point.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$. . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . 2 4 . . .
$$. . . O 1 3 . . .
$$. . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . . . . . .[/go]


Generally, :b3: is not good, because is allows :w4:, which forms a hane at the head of two stones shape, which is good for White.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$. . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . 2 3 . . .
$$. . . O 1 . . . .
$$. . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . . . . . .[/go]


The hane back is often best. The point is, if Black is concerned with being connected, she should not normally start with the attachment, :b1:. :)


While this is true, it's hardly a simple thing to explain to a beginner, and, ends up with a worse shape for black if white cuts, though a better result than simply running in the long run.



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$. . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . . . . . .
$$. . . 7 2 3 . . .
$$. . . O 1 4 . . .
$$. . . 6 5 . . . .
$$. . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . . . . . .[/go]


the results of this fight depend largely on the rest of a board that doesn't exist, and are hard to explain to a beginner. This little article wasn't meant to demonstrate the best moves, or good shape, but to talk about connections just a little. 3 in my diagram is solidly connected, but slow, and that's why I chose that diagram.

Whether it's a good idea for black to attach or not, what sort of fight develops from 3, and where to go from there is far more advanced than I'd intended my discussion to get.

Dusk Eagle wrote:Just some shape advice from one of your diagrams: I don't know if I can completely explain why, especially when the shape is on a fake board, but I think you'll probably want to use :b3: below more than you'll want to play :b3: at 'a' :) .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$. . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . . . . . .
$$. . . 2 3 a . . .
$$. . O . 1 . O . .
$$. . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . . . . . .[/go]


There's weird stuff for white to exploit with 'x' or 'y' below.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$. . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . . x . . .
$$. . . O . X . . .
$$. . O . X . O . .
$$. . . . y . . . .
$$. . . . . . . . .[/go]


Again with the, this isn't the move I was trying to demonstrate. Nor was I trying to demonstrate the best move. I suppose a better diagram might have been...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$. . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . . . . . .
$$. . . O . 1 . . .
$$. . O . X . O . X
$$. . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . . . . . .[/go]


Though why on earth white would play in this manner is beyond me.

In short, you're all right. The diagrams don't include what I would think of as 'best play' or necessarily 'good shape', but I was trying to demonstrate concepts, not analyze positions.

Re: How to Fail at Go (5k advice on fundamental ideas.)

Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 2:59 am
by tapir
Gosh. You need more stress tolerance. An advice to beginners emphasising the importance of staying connected is perfectly welcome. Capturing cutting stones when possible is one way to do so. To point this out is neither nitpicking nor suggesting you do not know nets, changing one stone in the diagram isn't too much work either. But using bad examples does hurt beginners, who do learn as much or more subconsciously from the diagrams as from explanatory texts that may be perfectly fine. Many on this forum can probably tell stories about that.

P.S. If you care you can look at EndgameTesuji16 on SL, where literally the same happened to me. A mistake shockingly pointed out by a weaker player.


CSamurai wrote:I think I'm going to give up on this little endeavor, if, for no other reason, everything I say is apparently wrong.

Granted, I know some of it was wrong, and I had intended only to demonstrate a situation where the move could possibly be used, not necessarily that it was the best move, or even a good move.


But, given that almost every diagram I've posted has been picked apart by those stronger than me, I'm going to chalk this one up to, why bother, and give it a miss.

Re: How to Fail at Go (5k advice on fundamental ideas.)

Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 3:20 am
by topazg
I agree completely with Tapir, and I've tried to be as constructive as possible in what I have said.

I'm not even suggesting you use or respond to anything - you are quite within your rights to ignore everything everyone says and do what you want anyway. If there are things that you read and go "Oh yeah, that would make my article better", then by all means adopt them, if you feel they've missed the point / tone / idea, don't take them as personal criticisms of your Go knowledge, rather as things of possible interest yet of little relevance to your article, and steam ahead anyway.

Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 3:38 am
by EdLee
CSamurai, actually this has been a good learning experience for you. :)

Re: How to Fail at Go (5k advice on fundamental ideas.)

Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 4:33 am
by Tsuyoku
I somewhat sympthize with CSamurai though.

It's like being hit with 20-volume encyclopedia when you're trying to say something much simpler than that.

Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 4:58 am
by EdLee
Tsuyoku wrote:trying to say something much simpler than that.
Simplicity, correctness, and a good explanation are three different things.
In fact, often some things that appear simple are very difficult if not impossible to be easily explained, let alone explained well.
As we have seen in this thread. :)

Re: How to Fail at Go (5k advice on fundamental ideas.)

Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 8:45 am
by Bill Spight
CSamurai wrote:I think I'm going to give up on this little endeavor, if, for no other reason, everything I say is apparently wrong.

Granted, I know some of it was wrong, and I had intended only to demonstrate a situation where the move could possibly be used, not necessarily that it was the best move, or even a good move.


But, given that almost every diagram I've posted has been picked apart by those stronger than me, I'm going to chalk this one up to, why bother, and give it a miss.


I am sorry if I discouraged you. :( I know from painful experience how difficult it is to compose a good problem, or even an example.

As a 5 kyu you are well qualified to advise DDKs. You are playing a different game from them, and what you say can open eyes. At the same time, you are close enough in strength to them that you can understand their thinking. :)

If I may make a suggestion, take examples from real games. As I said, it is very difficult to make up a good problem or example. It is too easy to get some detail wrong, often something that is peripheral to the point you want to make. That happens even in books by pros. But if you see a mistake in a DDK game, odds are good that you really understand it, and it will make a good example. OTOH, if you see an example of a good play in a pro game, odds are that it really is a good move. :)

Re: How to Fail at Go (5k advice on fundamental ideas.)

Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 8:48 am
by Bill Spight
tapir wrote:But using bad examples does hurt beginners, who do learn as much or more subconsciously from the diagrams as from explanatory texts that may be perfectly fine.


I agree. Well put. :)
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