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115 - robinz v. 1986

https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=3740

Page 2 of 31

Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:39 pm
by EdLee
After this sequence, W has sente and the :bc: stones seem not a good combo relative to :w7::
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . B . . . . . . . 7 . 1 O 5 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . B . . . . 2 X X 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 4 . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]
Compare:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . B O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 3 . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 6 5 9 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 8 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:44 pm
by 1986
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm12 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . 1 O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


i choose this is move because its joseki, its the only move i see really....
i actually wasn't expecting him to block on that side though,

right now i don't have any big plans sorry for the short comments; everything is pretty straightforward its still peaceful, one thing i am trying to do is whole board thinking w/ joseki i have been studying it and watching lectures on joseki so hopefully some of that will show through

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 2:53 am
by robinz
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm13 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . 1 X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


We're presumably going to get the following joseki:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm13 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . 6 . O O 4 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . 1 X X 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . 5 3 . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . b O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

- I haven't yet decided whether I'm going to play a or b afterwards (or perhaps even tenuki). At the moment I'm leaning towards a to help my other stones on the upper side, and keep white sealed in.

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 3:33 am
by 1986
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm14 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . X X X 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


standard joseki here

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 3:41 am
by robinz
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm15 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This comment intentionally left blank ;-)

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 3:47 am
by 1986
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm16 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . O O 1 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'm thinking about sente ... hmmmn something will come up

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 4:00 am
by robinz
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm17 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


For my next move, I may actually have to make a decision...

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 4:13 am
by 1986
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm18 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . 1 . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

alright this sequence is played out its his sente lets see how he uses it

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 4:54 am
by robinz
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm19 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


As I said a few moves back, the main choice was between this move and Q14. Q14 firmly captures the stone at R14 (I recall Kageyama calling it the "proper move"), but I also know it's not the only joseki move, and right now, it feels more important to me to keep white confined to third-line territory on the top. I don't think he can do much with that stone yet (and I'm sure he won't try to). While I'll probably have to take gote at some point in the future to do something about it, and that will be a bit annoying, it's not clear that it would be any worse than doing so now :)

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 5:52 am
by 1986
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm20 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


OK,1st & foremost,
i wasn't expecting that move, i thought for sure he was going to approach my lonely stone

2nd i want to consider taking sente away from him but first,, i wanna ask why he played it is there something I'm missing/ can i die

hmmmn, i really don't want to risk giving him sente again by reinforcing the top group I'm OK for now,

so now I'm deciding on where to play to make things good for me,

i see wall beginning to form on the top side and the right side is potentially looking promising for black

I'm not to comfortable with approaching form the r6 direction tight or loose
so that leaves me with o3

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm20 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 8 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . 6 X 4 7 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 3 9 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


i got enough territory for now i prefer to have some counter influence to his high position so far
besides the middle of the right side becomes very promising

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm20 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


a light way to play but it is still not so good maybe later though...

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 6:25 am
by robinz
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


No pincer this time - firstly, he has the lower left, and secondly, I want to build up a moyo on the right, so it's important for me to avoid him double-approaching. Because of this moyo potential, I'm playing this move high rather than low - he can't easily slide in and undercut me (although he may well still successfully invade in the R8 region). I expect him to now make an extension from his just-played approach (possibly after sliding first), when I will probably play on the left (I'm currently trying to choose between a normal approach at C6 or a wedge at C9). Of course, he could invade the lower-right now as he just did the upper-right, but I will still have some nice options, so I won't worry about that now.

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 6:36 am
by 1986
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm22 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


basic joseki here

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 6:42 am
by robinz
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm23 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
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I briefly considered whether or not I needed to play this, or whether I'd be better of tenukiing to a big point on the left - but then I decided that this is too good for me. I do feel that that last move of his feels like a mistake (even though it's one of the moves I was expecting) - the corner is now mine, and I think I basically only need one more move around Q8 to have fairly secure fourth line territory on a whole side of the board! Further, he still needs an extra move to stabilise his group here.

So I currently feel pretty good about this board, and I'm beginning to feel glad I played an opening I was comfortable with - I just hope I don't screw things up too much in the middlegame/endgame now ;-)

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 6:56 am
by 1986
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm24 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'm keeping it simple here i thought about q9 but i might as well see how he is going to play his next turn then decide on something hmmmn

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 7:17 am
by robinz
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm25 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I can't see anything urgent on the board right now, so I should play the biggest move - and I think this is it. I'd still like to play at Q14, or in the Q8/9 region, but I think this side must be biggest. While my right is still invadable (I think so, anyway), the same applies to many points in white's position. And, whichever way he forces me to extend with this stone, it should put some pressure on white. Especially if I get to extend to C6, so I'm expecting white to play that.
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