Life In 19x19

If you look at the best go equipment sold by online Chinese go equipment websites such as http://www.benshou.com/category.php?id=71, you will see that present day Chinese people are willing to spend an enormous amount of money to purchase the best manufactured Japanese go equipment.

[What I mean by manufactured is of course different from something that is made as a one-off by a dedicated craftsmen financed by perhaps a rich internet billionaire. I mean for all I know, someone could order a set of go stones made from perhaps gold and Imperial grade feicui jadeite.]

In the past when China was much poorer and with memories of what happened within China during the Japanese occupation in WWII, there could definitely have been a feeling of bitterness to those who promoted luxury Japanese goods into China. But in a world where China is emerging as one of the largest economies in the world, the Chinese people are looking for the highest quality goods from the world over.

If you have the pleasure of coming to HK for a visit, do visit Canton Road in the Tsimshatsui area where you'll see lines of mainland Chinese people lining up to enter the flagship luxury brand good stores such as LV and Chanel.

John Fairbairn wrote:if you've got it, flaunt it.

If you look through the "go sightings" section of my blog, you'll see that amongst the many items shown, I do flaunt the few which I own and treasure.

Remember, during the Hikaru craze, people on KGS would greet you with "Onegaishimasu"? Yuck. I agree that presenting go as exotic is harmful and uncool.

I still find myself using "goban" for floor gobans, though. Maybe in Japanese they're referred to by the same word as table boards; but in English, "board" just doesn't mean that. A small free-standing table with four legs is not a board. You could say it's a "floor board" but that would again be a weird neologism describing something that doesn't exist in any other game. What do you suggest, John? Go table?

On a somewhat unrelated note, people buying floor gobans because of their aesthetics should perhaps invest in a whole traditionally furnished Japanese room to put around that goban - otherwise it just looks ridiculous and out of place...

Chew Terr wrote:Kirby: Really depends on the company.

I agree. It sounded to me like one perspective here was that the use of exotic words like "goban" should never be used. I could have misinterpreted the perspective, though.

Chew Terr wrote:...
However, if I'm not sure of my audience, I try to use the English equivalent (framework versus moyo, 3-3 versus san-san, and so on). At least with beginners, I even try to replace words like 'aji' with 'risk', 'potential', or whatever. There are some words that have no English equivalent, like 'atari'. I like to play a few games of capture go with a beginner before introducing 'atari', though I get to it inside the first session. Until I build up to that, I just say things like, "Be careful, that stone's in danger of being surrounded", or "Look out, I'm trying to cut off the air supply of that stone", but I explain atari once the other player gets the basic rules...

I suppose that this is what is not totally clear to me. You've provided an example of how we can describe atari without using the word. Why should we use the word "atari" in our posts, but not "goban"? Or are you saying that, with people new to the game, you use only English words? If so, I think that's at least consistent.

On an unrelated note, I personally kind of like it when people use foreign words, because English feels more boring when you are saying the same thing. Still, I can understand why people might want to use only English to prevent scaring off their audience. But if we do it with some words, it seems natural to make whatever effort we can to do it with all words. Yes, sometimes there's not an exact equivalent. But at least we can try to convey the thought with an English phrase.

Koroviev wrote:

John Fairbairn wrote:Being historical does not automatically make a GO BOARD famous or important.

SURROUNDING GAME boards. No need to get fancy with the foreign lingo.

Go is a proper name, and those are not typically translated, though they may be pronounced quite poorly. If you are named William or Peter, you will probably not be called "Guillaume" or "Pedro" when you visit France or Portugal. Nor will you have to translate the name of your town if it's "Newcastle" or "Lizard Lick".

hyperpape wrote:

Koroviev wrote:

John Fairbairn wrote:Being historical does not automatically make a GO BOARD famous or important.

SURROUNDING GAME boards. No need to get fancy with the foreign lingo.

Go is a proper name, and those are not typically translated, though they may be pronounced quite poorly. If you are named William or Peter, you will probably not be called "Guillaume" or "Pedro" when you visit France or Portugal. Nor will you have to translate the name of your town if it's "Newcastle" or "Lizard Lick".

/sense of humour bypass/

People also argue about whether Go/go should be capitalized. Some words like poker are names of popular games, and are sometimes not capitalized. Usually when a new game comes out, it is capitalized. Should Go/go be lowercase as it becomes more popular? Is it still a proper noun, or is it the name of a common activity? I don't really know.

What do you suggest, John? Go table?

[ for a floor board]

My own habit is to say something like 'traditional go board' or 'the old type of Japanese boards'. This conveys the extra implication that you don't need to have such a board nowadays. I'm sure people in general have a sense that you need to buy the right equipment to do certain Oriental martial arts, and they might feel at first that go has a similar mentality. Fortunately taiji swept away much of the mystique for martial arts, and we can do the same for go.

People also argue about whether Go/go should be capitalized.

And some people also argue whether it should be 'capitalised' (-ise for words from Latin, -ize for Greek).

I go for uncapitalised go. In general, majuscules seem to be waning everywhere, but I was still startled this morning to see ceo instead of CEO.

John Fairbairn wrote:

What do you suggest, John? Go table?

[ for a floor board]

My own habit is to say something like 'traditional go board' or 'the old type of Japanese boards'. This conveys the extra implication that you don't need to have such a
board nowadays.

That works.

Fortunately taiji swept away much of the mystique for martial arts

It did? This is news to me. On the other hand, taiji is Chinese and Chinese culture in general seems to obsess a lot less about equipment.

John Fairbairn wrote:

People also argue about whether Go/go should be capitalized.

And some people also argue whether it should be 'capitalised' (-ise for words from Latin, -ize for Greek).

I had always assumed (maybe incorrectly) that "capitalise" was from "British English", whereas "capitalize" was from "American English". Another one I've heard before is discrepancy between having one or two "l" characters before "ing" for certain words (eg. labelling vs. labeling).

Kirby wrote:

John Fairbairn wrote:

People also argue about whether Go/go should be capitalized.

And some people also argue whether it should be 'capitalised' (-ise for words from Latin, -ize for Greek).

I had always assumed (maybe incorrectly) that "capitalise" was from "British English", whereas "capitalize" was from "American English".

Common misconception.

Koroviev wrote:

Common misconception.

Would you like to elaborate?

Webster's dictionary seems to think that "capitalize" is an acceptable spelling: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/capitalize

It also says that "capitalise" is the "British version of capitalize": http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictiona ... 1305147225

Kirby wrote:People also argue about whether Go/go should be capitalized.

Pardon my ignorance about the English language, but why should it be? Is chess, bridge, etc? I would have never thought of writing "Go" instead of "go", but then again my mother tongue is Finnish (and in Finnish it is written in lowercase).

tj86430 wrote:

Kirby wrote:People also argue about whether Go/go should be capitalized.

Pardon my ignorance about the English language, but why should it be? Is chess, bridge, etc? I would have never thought of writing "Go" instead of "go", but then again my mother tongue is Finnish (and in Finnish it is written in lowercase).

If I invented a game and made up a name for it - say "Kirbgame", it would be a proper name for the game, and should be capitalized. When something becomes a common activity ("playing chess"), in my opinion, it starts showing up in lowercase.

I think the same thing happens with store products, sometimes. We don't capitalize "tissue", but when the "Kleenex" brand came out, it was a proper name for the product, and was capitalized. "Kleenex" is such a common brand for tissue that, whether it's correct or not, I've started to see it used synonymously with the word "tissue". In turn, I've started to see kleenex uncapitalized, as well.

It seems to me - and this is just my hypothesis - that when a proper noun starts to become commonplace, it starts being seen with a non-capitalized spelling.

Kirby wrote:

Koroviev wrote:

Common misconception.

Would you like to elaborate?

Webster's dictionary seems to think that "capitalize" is an acceptable spelling: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/capitalize

It also says that "capitalise" is the "British version of capitalize": http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictiona ... 1305147225

Both are correct in British English now, but (depending on word origin) -ize endings were once the standard in British English. This has gradually changed, and people have come to believe it's an American innovation. Grammar snobs occasionally jump on it as some kind of vulgar Americanism, when in fact it's not.

But as I say, both are now considered correct here, unless perhaps you are over 100 years old or work for the OED.

(This depends on the word though, some, like advertise, are never spelt with a zed.)