Life In 19x19

DrStraw wrote:YES, I HATE IT

But then, I never play it because I never play 4-4 at all.

(BTW, Why can't I use font bigger than 200? 200 does express the extent of my aversion.)

I wholeheartedly agree.
Since the only books that I have read over and over again are "In The Beginning" and "Ishida's Joseki Dictionaries" (mostly #2). The reason being those are the only books that are available at the library.
I get frustrated by the other players playing too normally. 4-4 has too many ways to make it normal. On the other hand, if it were a 3-4, I'm sure to play out some kind of fun (avalanche) variation.

Yes. I've vented about it before.

It might be fun to play some games with the diagonal 4-4 setup. After all, that starting setup was popular for centuries.

I tend to enjoy games more when I feel like I'm learning something from it. And what better way to learn widely applicable principles than to play the most bland/neutral/standard/boring game possible? So I like all 4-4s from time to time.

95% of my games at wbaduk are quadruple 4-4. My opponents know perhaps 3 joseki from that so it gets very predictable. I on the other hand, know a whooping 4 so I'm at a distinctive advantage.

It's not that I hate it, but I just think it's boring
I like to have some different opening (joseki) options.
Therefore I do not play games with four 4-4's often.
But if it does happen it's not something I would dislike on principle.

For everybody who hates it so much, nobody's forcing you to play a 4-4 for either Black 3 or White 4.

I usually play a 4-4 followed by a 3-4, whether I have Black or White. The exception is if I have Black and White gives me the possibility to play a diagonal fuseki; I usually take that opportunity because it seems that my opponents aren't quite as good at dealing with diagonal fusekis as they are with the Chinese, Kobayashi, or any other fuseki that involves playin in adjacent corners for Black 1 and 3.

Not that it's helped my play very much.

Fedya wrote:I usually play a 4-4 followed by a 3-4, whether I have Black or White.

Like this?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B popular opening?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

I've noticed a lot of my recent opponents opened with this. As for an all 4-4 game I don't dislike it, until they start invading that is . The problem I find is that if I start to enclose my corners (and playing small-ish) the opponent grabs the big points somewhere else, but if I play for the big points first I almost always end up getting invaded and/or losing a corner

I almost always play 4 4 openings as white. But pretty much never do it as black.

I've always played at least a 3-4 point since 12k or so, I've completely forgotten what all 4-4 points are like now...

It seems silly to talk about choosing 4-4 or 4-3 based on what you like without any regard to the fuseki being played out.

If the choice of corner plays doesn't have regard for the fuseki, I don't know what does.

zenith wrote:

Fedya wrote:I usually play a 4-4 followed by a 3-4, whether I have Black or White.

Like this?

$$B popular opening?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B popular opening?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Yes, that's exactly what I mean. Depending on my mood, I can play 5 at a, or play the Kobayashi.

I've noticed a lot of my recent opponents opened with this. As for an all 4-4 game I don't dislike it, until they start invading that is . The problem I find is that if I start to enclose my corners (and playing small-ish) the opponent grabs the big points somewhere else, but if I play for the big points first I almost always end up getting invaded and/or losing a corner

I have much the same problem. That, and my invasions don't work, but my opponents' invasions do.

My philosophy is force yourself to play anything you are uncomfortable with. If it is considered acceptable at a professional level, then any failure to make it work for you is a failure to understand what to do with it, which hints at a gap in Go knowledge. If repeatedly playing it and analysing high level games involving it make you more comfortable with the move, then it's possible that your study gave insights into principles of Go that help your game (both with that opening and with Go generally).

It strikes me that it's the moves we find hard to handle, or hard to play as well as other people seem to, that are the ones waiting to teach us what we don't yet understand.

FWIW: As Black I always play 4-4 in the upper right corner. That will probably never change. For years I played only san-ren-sei as Black because Micheal Redmond likes that opening, but it got stale. Lately I've been having more luck with the Chinese. Very recently, I've begun playing diagonal fusekis when White offers, though I've always favored parallel fuseki because my natural style is a moyo style.

In other words, I like a plan I can stick with, but they seem to get stale after a while.