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132 Kirby vs. tj86430 (4-stone hcp)

https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=4298

Page 2 of 17

Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 1:01 am
by EdLee
(For beginners.) B has made no mistakes so far -- all standard, good moves.

Re: 132 Kirby vs. tj86430 (4-stone hcp)

Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 3:53 am
by Loons
However, the joseki he 'would like to see' is for when c. K3 extension already exists. Perhaps he has a special strategy to pressure white when he plays the split.

Edit:
And this joseki does what it looks like it does.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . b . . . |
$$ . . . . . . B . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . 1 . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . a . X . . . |
$$ . . . a . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ------------------+[/go]

Rather than going after the corner (a normal strategy) white jumps out and pressures the marked stone (especially with 'b' as part of an influence opening). I'm sure you know some popular variations. It is considered disadvantageous for white when the influence will be hard to use (vs black profit) and the fighting variations (ladders involved) do not favor white. (You can check kogo's yourself for variations).

Have a fun game.

Re: 132 Kirby vs. tj86430 (4-stone hcp)

Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 5:44 am
by Kirby
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . 7 . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I feel like Magicwand would jump out here, if he were playing against me. Taking points with 3-3 is nice, but it is too simple, I think. Magicwand would want to make the game more complicated.

I'm going to play the way that I think he would.

Re: 132 Kirby vs. tj86430 (4-stone hcp)

Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 6:54 am
by tj86430
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . 8 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I don't know anything better. He believe will either counterpincer, after which we both run towards center, or make some sort of base with S4.

Re: 132 Kirby vs. tj86430 (4-stone hcp)

Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 7:17 am
by Kirby
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I am still trying to play like Magicwand. I want to force black to make a weak group. It might take some time to do this, though.

Re: 132 Kirby vs. tj86430 (4-stone hcp)

Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 7:30 am
by tj86430
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc10 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'm happy with this development. I welcome the chance to make more or less solid base on the right side before attacking one or both of his weak groups. Of course the ideal pincer is one step closer, but I don't want to give him a chance to split me. If he approaches my top-right handicap stone from two directions, I will try to keep him split.

Re: 132 Kirby vs. tj86430 (4-stone hcp)

Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 3:04 pm
by Kirby
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . 1 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Well, I can't force a Magicwand-style game, because I'm not Magicwand. He does inspire me, but I've still got to play my own game. This is the move that looks good to me, so I'm going with it.

Re: 132 Kirby vs. tj86430 (4-stone hcp)

Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 12:06 am
by tj86430
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


First I thought of this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . B O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

but:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O c X 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b a 3 . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . 2 B O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Now white can cut (a-b-c), which I don't like (I might get a good result, but it leads to a complicated fight which I would like to avoid against a stronger player)

Since we haven't agreed on using joseki dictionaries, I'm not using one, and I'm notoriously bad at joseki without any help.

Re: 132 Kirby vs. tj86430 (4-stone hcp)

Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 12:36 am
by lorill
@TJ:

In your second diagram, play 4 at c instead.

Re: 132 Kirby vs. tj86430 (4-stone hcp)

Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 12:55 am
by tj86430
@lorill:
lorill wrote:In your second diagram, play 4 at c instead.

Thanks. So simple, so elegant.

Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 1:54 am
by EdLee
TJ,
This seems a very good opportunity to study the :wc: double approach,
especially when you have the :bc: stone. After (a-b-c), B cuts at (d), you know W cannot atari at (e);
W can only atari at (f). This simplifies the reading a little bit. Next, W will probably
hane at (g). I'm curious to see your analysis. :)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$----------------
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . W c X 4 g . |
$$ . . b a 3 . . |
$$ . . 2 X O . . |
$$ . . . 1 d f . |
$$ . . . . e . . |
$$ . . . . B . . |
$$ . . . , . . . |[/go]

Re: 132 Kirby vs. tj86430 (4-stone hcp)

Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 4:53 am
by Kirby
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Well, locally, I am OK with this exchange:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W B . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


His diagonal play feels a bit awkward to me. Globally, I would like to attack these stones:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So in that sense, the extending, above, might hurt the chances of getting such an attack in (though I like the play locally). That's because he'll probably continue to play to split me.

That's why I want to play 3-3 first, to see how he'll play next.

Re: 132 Kirby vs. tj86430 (4-stone hcp)

Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 1:59 am
by tj86430
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O . X 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This feels like the correct direction to block. This way his stone @R14 becomes very lonely, and my two stones on the right side hopefully get connected to the upper right corner group.

If I block the other way, his stone @O16 will still have plenty of room to make life for itself, and my groups may stay separated

Re:

Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 2:06 am
by tj86430
@EdLee:

EdLee wrote:This seems a very good opportunity to study the :wc: double approach,
especially when you have the :bc: stone. After (a-b-c), B cuts at (d), you know W cannot atari at (e);
W can only atari at (f). This simplifies the reading a little bit. Next, W will probably
hane at (g). I'm curious to see your analysis. :)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$----------------
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . W c X 4 g . |
$$ . . b a 3 . . |
$$ . . 2 X O . . |
$$ . . . 1 d f . |
$$ . . . . e . . |
$$ . . . . B . . |
$$ . . . , . . . |[/go]

It seems there are still many, quite complex, variations. I will try to spend some time on this later and return to this analysis. Perhaps even in a new thread.

Re: 132 Kirby vs. tj86430 (4-stone hcp)

Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 11:02 am
by Kirby
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . 5 O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'll just take points for now...
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