Life In 19x19

Redundant wrote:If I stopped charging for the hotel room, would it make it ok to wiretap it? This isn't a good analogy, but the fact that I'm not paying for use of the server (even though I did pay for KGS+) doesn't change anything about privacy issues. I know that KGS explicitly states that there is no expectation of privacy, but it still really annoys me that all the admins have this power, given that some of them are people that I would not associate with in real life (this last bit is a euphemism for many choice insults that would violate L19 TOS). I'd prefer if stuff like this were more difficult for KGS staff to access, as to prevent abuse.

If it's helpful to you, I'm happy to explain the perspective of one of the admins who can read the private messages and discussions in private rooms.

Only senior admins can read private messages and chat in private rooms.

Senior admins only look at private chats or conversations in private rooms in response to complaints. Provided that either you or the person you're speaking with aren't subject to a complaint from another player, there's no reason for the admins to look at your private discussions. Although theoretically senior admins can view any discussion anywhere on KGS, in practice the vast majority of discussions on KGS are of no interest to anyone other than the participants themselves.

That said, if you truly want to have a discussion about something very important and personal, then I suggest that you have the conversation on Skype or another instant messenger. When I want to have a personal discussion with a friend, that's what I do.

Finally, I can't think of a circumstance where any admin would have any real interest in reading private chats, provided that one of the people involved isn't the subject of a complaint. KGS management investigates complaints about admin behaviour precisely to ensure that players can have confidence that admins don't abuse their positions.

BigDoug wrote:

Redundant wrote:If I stopped charging for the hotel room, would it make it ok to wiretap it? This isn't a good analogy, but the fact that I'm not paying for use of the server (even though I did pay for KGS+) doesn't change anything about privacy issues. I know that KGS explicitly states that there is no expectation of privacy, but it still really annoys me that all the admins have this power, given that some of them are people that I would not associate with in real life (this last bit is a euphemism for many choice insults that would violate L19 TOS). I'd prefer if stuff like this were more difficult for KGS staff to access, as to prevent abuse.

If it's helpful to you, I'm happy to explain the perspective of one of the admins who can read the private messages and discussions in private rooms.

Only senior admins can read private messages and chat in private rooms.

Senior admins only look at private chats or conversations in private rooms in response to complaints. Provided that either you or the person you're speaking with aren't subject to a complaint from another player, there's no reason for the admins to look at your private discussions. Although theoretically senior admins can view any discussion anywhere on KGS, in practice the vast majority of discussions on KGS are of no interest to anyone other than the participants themselves.

That said, if you truly want to have a discussion about something very important and personal, then I suggest that you have the conversation on Skype or another instant messenger. When I want to have a personal discussion with a friend, that's what I do.

Finally, I can't think of a circumstance where any admin would have any real interest in reading private chats, provided that one of the people involved isn't the subject of a complaint. KGS management investigates complaints about admin behaviour precisely to ensure that players can have confidence that admins don't abuse their positions.

Thanks for these comments. I do not have much of a problem with this policy.

If I am being abused by someone, I should have the right to contact an admin, and they should able to see what I am complaining about in my private chat with someone. I have NO problem at all with this.

Now, if a third party complains about someone, or the admin starts rooting around my private chats with others, or the person I am complaining about's (could that possibly be a correct possessive?) private chats with others, that is more intrusive. I am still ok with it - but this is my "not much of a problem" area. Again, if the admin is simply trying to establish that the person complained about by a "victim" is engaging in a pattern of behavior - that seems reasonable.

But I do worry if the complaint came from a potentially malicious third party to any of the chats - just to cause trouble or harass someone. I would hope that this is unlikely, but I can see it happening under certain circumstances.

Ultimately, I completely understand that the admins have a tough job, and we are getting a wonderful free service. I want KGS to be a pleasant place for me, and a safe place for children - and I do believe that is the goal and the aim of the admins on KGS.

isnt it true that apart from private chats also private games can be opened? This could be abused because private lessons from pros can be opened and viewed. Do you log these kinds of stuff too and do they get checked?

stalkor wrote:isnt it true that apart from private chats also private games can be opened? This could be abused because private lessons from pros can be opened and viewed. Do you log these kinds of stuff too and do they get checked?

If a private game is in open, it can be entered (again to investigate a complaint). This is not logged, however it's fairly easy to see if it is being abused as the userlist in the game will show that the admin has entered. If it is a finished/archived private game, it cannot be opened.

For how many hours/days is chat a) logged and b) visible to (senior) admins?

Mef wrote:
To be fair, the privacy policy is part of the Terms of Service, which is the first page a user will be directed to if they have a question about KGS policies (also a page that has a dedicated link in the help menu of the client). If you are a new user to KGS, the first line you see (After "Welcome to KGS!") in the chat room welcome message is the link to the KGS policy FAQ, which has the first bullet point refer users to the ToS. Short of actively announcing it on a regular basis (which would probably be irritating to regular users), it is hard to make the information more accessible.

Again, "to be fair", I think that the information could, in fact be made more accessible. Just so we're all on the same page, let's take a look at the KGS TOS:



The second sentence of the boxed portion at the bottom is where it says that KGS text is logged - after the wall of single font text in front of it. It's easier to catch this information in wms's post here on the subject.

The other problem with this is, the TOS does not equate to what's enforced on the server. For example, people are banned by admins for talking about "non-go related chat" in games. Where is this to be found in the TOS?

Anyway, it's not true that more can't be done to make the TOS more clear and accessible, along with the privacy policy.

its pretty stupid to not read the privacy policy, and then complain about not understanding the privacy policy. Seriously, what?

The visibility may surely be improved, but what I am concerned about is the information it has - which is scarce. I would at least like to know if my chat is logged for an hour, a month, or forever.

Obviously, there is no point in storing data longer than necessary. I doubt a user would complain about another user's words weeks later. So it would make me a happy panda if WMS could confirm that logged chat is deleted after, say, a month.

On the other hand, I do not think the visibility of the paragraphs themselves is really bad, there are incredibly many far worse examples.

I'm fairly sure admins can also see certain system properties like your os name, etc.

http://docs.oracle.com/javase/tutorial/ ... sprop.html

You can just redefine them in the command line to hide them if you are paranoid.

mafu wrote:I doubt a user would complain about another user's words weeks later.

If you read through these forums you'd notice that some users complain about another user's words years later (=

But on a more serious note, I don't know offhand exactly how long the logs are kept for, but I know it is less than a month (I want to say two weeks?) unless there is a special reason to (recording a ban, etc).

I find it really strange. What are you people saying in your chats that is so secret or damaging that you are getting bent out of shape when you realize admins can potentially see it?!? I mean - just be polite to other, which is a good idea regardless of circumstances, and there will never be a reason for an admin to look at your chats. And even if they do, so what?

PS>
Oh, and don't give out personal info - like bank account numbers - over KGS chat.

PS>
I also find it strange that in 21st century people really seriously expect privacy while using a digital service.
Puh-leeze...

speedchase wrote:its pretty stupid to not read the privacy policy, and then complain about not understanding the privacy policy. Seriously, what?

I agree. But the statement was that it was difficult to make the information in the privacy policy more accessible to people - and this is not correct.

When all is said and done, everything you do on KGS ( and L19 ) is just a string of bits someplace on a disk. Some portions of that string are formatted in different ways, and accessed with different procedures, but it is still just a string of bits.
You have no reason to assume that admins can see some bits and not others.

1. Trust no one.

2. Chat only using a cipher on kgs.

duckweed wrote:1. Trust no one.

2. Chat only using a cipher on kgs.

Yes! This has been my mantra for some time now. It may appear that my words are in English, speaking aggressively in the EGR and KGS forum only to tick other people off.

But it's actually part of an elaborate code. I don't think anybody's figured out what I'm really saying, yet.