Life In 19x19

If I were a strong player who had gotten strong with little or no help from the AGA, someone would have to do a lot of fast talking to persuade me that a tap is fair.

He may have got strong with little help from the AGA, but he probably wouldn't have got the invitation without the infrastructure of the AGA or the selfless work of AGA officials, so such a levy seems eminently fair. The only question is the size of the levy. In China it would be 25% (and I think income tax levels are even lower than in the USA), but it's possibly a case of gaol if you don't pay the levy there, and I think a recalcitrant US player could usefully be offered the same alternative. Or send him to Coventry, as happened with Yi Se-tol.

(Partial explanation: our UK newspapers have been full of articles on the US supercop who wants to head London's police force. He was famous for claiming zero tolerance works - maybe it does.)

hilltopgo wrote:If I were a strong player who had gotten strong with little or no help from the AGA, someone would have to do a lot of fast talking to persuade me that a tap is fair.

I'm curious which strong player out there doesn't benefit from the activities of the AGA? Anyone born in the US learned go here, and has benefited from the tournaments and go congresses that are organized. Immigrant professionals benefit from having the E-Journal provide free publicity for their paid teaching services, and from the AGA bringing beginners into the fold that will be the customers for said teaching. The AGA now funds the Ing Cup directly out of membership dues, and all strong players enjoy that event.

Strong players benefit from the AGA's activities and its existence, and it's long past time that they contributed something back in return.

I'm not saying I disagree with Messrs. Fairbairn and Waldron (both of whom have my deep respect). In fact, I'm still sorting out my feelings on this proposal. But I am saying that, if I had the perspective of (for example) a foreign-born, foreign-trained 9p who had built my own successful Go school here, then probably I would disagree.

[edit -- typo in name ]

pwaldron wrote:...
Anyone born in the US learned go here, and has benefited from the tournaments and go congresses that are organized. ...

I agree that the AGA has probably helped a lot of people, but I know for a fact that this is not a true statement.

It's worth noting that prizes are taxable in the U.S. and (I believe) not taxable in many European countries, so even with an EGF tap a European could conceivably see more prize money than he would have seen from comparable employment income, whereas an American would be paying an AGA tap on top of the applicable marginal tax rate.

I don't have any particularly smart thoughts on whether this is a good idea or not, but my intuitions are something like this: if the AGA is taking responsibility for all travel expenses, then an arbitrarily high tap is justified (after all, it's unlikely that the AGA cut of a hypothetical prize will ever recoup years and years of travel expenses). If the funds are being used to fund go education and other worthy goals, we could argue about the value of a tap relative to other ways of raising money. If the AGA needs the money to pay board member's spouses to do clerical tasks, maybe we should avoid the tap.

pwaldron wrote:Anyone born in the US learned go here, and has benefited from the tournaments and go congresses that are organized...

The sense in which this is true strikes me as similar to the sense in which the NCAA deserves to profit from the abilities of young athletes.

jts wrote:

pwaldron wrote:Anyone born in the US learned go here, and has benefited from the tournaments and go congresses that are organized...

The sense in which this is true strikes me as similar to the sense in which the NCAA deserves to profit from the abilities of young athletes.

Having the advertising associated with the college basketball scene, I'd say the NCAA does a pretty good job profiting from the abilities of its young athletes.

hilltopgo wrote:I'm not saying I disagree with Messrs. Fairbairn and Waldron (both of whom have my deep respect). In fact, I'm still sorting out my feelings on this proposal. But I am saying that, if I had the perspective of (for example) a foreign-born, foreign-trained 9p who had built my own successful Go school here, then probably I would disagree.

[edit -- typo in name ]

When is Feng Yun going to become President, she makes all the key policy decisions anyway.

10% tax seems fair enough to me.

Demanding payment because of some vague general benefit the organization offers to go players is dangerous, and I don't think it is what is being recommended.

I imagine one of the reasons for deciding this early is so that the agreement with any future U.S.-certified pros will be in place. That is, we certainly don't want a situation where someone becomes a pro and then later has a "tap" foisted on them. Rather, it should be clear from the initial agreement.

If there is a tap, there needs to be a quid pro quo. After thinking about it more, the "quid pro quo" is the professional status itself (which is granted by the AGA). And in these circumstances, professional certification will be the only thing we can reliably point to as a benefit each pro player received. You could think of it as contingent deferred consideration (payment) for the license.

I know it is an overreaction on my part, but justifying the requirement for such a payment on the dubious notion that the organization is "good for everybody" sickens me. (I know, I know, like I said, being "sickened" is an overreaction). So, let's just say it is for the pro certificate.

Javaness2 wrote:

hilltopgo wrote:[...] if I had the perspective of (for example) a foreign-born, foreign-trained 9p who had built my own successful Go school here, then probably I would disagree. [...]

When is Feng Yun going to become President, she makes all the key policy decisions anyway.

10% tax seems fair enough to me.

That is who springs to mind; but there are others in a somewhat similar situation. Jujo Jiang isn't 9p last I remember, but he learned Go overseas and, I think, built a school in California. Joey Hung and Jie Li might fit, with a little shoehorning. Janice Kim and James Kerwin are native born, but trained overseas, and I think they still makes their livings largely through Go lessons. I'd be interested in their opinions on this.

I am a little curious about the history of the rather cute term "tap". Isn't Javaness2 more accurate in calling it a "tax"? (We probably can not call it a tithe since the bidding seems to have started at a lot more than 10%.)

Is the correct image that of the robber barons of old, levying tolls upon the boats plying the rivers just because they held the castles on the heights? You can speculate about future good efforts as you will. The fact is that the AGA (EGF, etc.) monopolizes the entry point, nothing more. The idea would be to exploit that to extract some money, not from the tournament sponsors (possible if there were a monopoly on players, e.g. the professional associations in asian countries), but from the players. Is the AGA a tax-free charity? Would players from the U.S. get to deduct the "tap" from their winnings on their tax returns?

Some other information that hasn't been mentioned on here but was said at congress:

Sport Accord games in asia has a lowest prize(lost all games) with a $2000 payout
Two pro's have opposed the TAP for the AGA: Feng Yun and Mingjiu Jiang
The AGA President said he would want to limit the TAP to $2000 prizes and higher, several strong players were OK with that

That being said I am all for the TAP at any level. The AGA provides many services to strong players through tournaments and opportunities to go overseas. Being a SDK I am nowhere near eligible for any of those opportunities like the strong players, except paying for their teaching. I believe in the past the AGA has paid for airfare for the player being sent overseas.

As many have mentioned there are a lot of strong players that have not learned go in the US and top our rosters. The professionals that would be affected by this do not pay for AGA dues, but amateur players do. Do asian players have to pay fees to their countries organization to be able to play in these tournaments?

Will this board ever hear from one of those strong players affected? Why don't our strong players want to be like their asian counterparts which are taxed/tapped the 20% they will earn?

One last thing: the proposal was written by Thomas Hsiang 8d who has been sent to asia many times for tournaments like the WMSG, Fujitsu and KPMC.

vash3g wrote:... Will this board ever hear from one of those strong players affected? ...

It's already known that the two you mention strongly oppose any tap; the president reported at the general assembly that it was discussed at the strong player's meeting and that the 8 or 9 there (who would potentially be affected in the future) were generally in favor or at least not strongly opposed.

... Oh, I guess you meant L19 and not the AGA board. Well, this is worth saying anyway.

@ez4u, it can't be a "tax" because the AGA is not a government body. Donations to the AGA are not tax deductible (donations to the AGF are, though); I'm certainly not a tax expert but I would presume that money paid as part of the tap would be something like a business expense and the strong player would only be taxed on the amount of money they actually receive. I could very well be wrong, of course.

@everyone, thank you for the great discussion. I think I'm currently leaning towards being in favor of a tap, but I'm still listening

I support the tap. Up to 20% seems fine.
I doubt I'll ever get the chance to give the AGA 20% of my winnings, though.

BTW. This news about the American pro scene got me to renew. I'd been off go for 2-3 years while completing a master's thesis.

The major concern that I have with this scheme is that there is an asymetrical definition of obligations. The player would be obligated to give X percent of his winnings to the AGA, and the AGA is obligated to err..uhh...do exactly what for the player?

I'd like to see symmmetry. If the AGA is going to define what players contribute to it, then let it define exactly what it will contribute to the players. Will it pay entry fees? Travel expenses? Will it train young players with room and board like the inseis receive in Asian countries?

At my most cynical, I fear that this could degenerate into a defacto extortion racket. If Asian tournament sponsors give the AGA the right to decide who gets to go, then the AGA would have a monopoly, and could demand almost any cut it wants from the players.

Please note that I am not making commments about the character of the current AGA officers. I do not suggest that any individual would deliberately take advantage of the players. My comments are about the structure of the organization. I fear that if policies are set in place that are inherently asymetrical, even the best of AGA officers would find it difficult to treat players fairly.

This evening, while chaperoning my daughter on a mad dash through the house, the scales fell from my eyes and I realized that I am not sure how to answer this question because I don't know how the circumstances under which it would come into play.

1. How many games would you have to win in various tournaments to hit the $2000 minimum? Are we talking about a rare achievement like Fernando Aguilar's two straight wins, or something more difficult? If the purse is a once in a decade windfall, I think it makes sense to leave it to the player. If American Go needs another two decades to reach a point where these prizes are more regular, we need to evaluate it based on the programs we have in place then. If we are talking about players regularly winning two or three rounds in major international tournaments, I think we can assume that country has more going on than the current AGA.

2. So far as they can be divulged, given that there are probably ongoing negotiations, what are the plans surrounding an American professional program? Will this involve new events, money from the AGA or anything else?

2b. Not precisely on topic but relevant to (2): is there a plan for how the AGA will decide whether or not to institute a professional program? Will chapters/members vote, or will the board speak for us? I must say I'm a bit surprised that there are plans to create such a program so soon, and I'd like to see more transparency and public discussion.