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Re: Interesting problem
Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 7:20 am
by Kirby
To me, more impressive than the problem is that Herman missed something...
Re: Interesting problem
Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 6:42 pm
by Shaddy
Perhaps, Kirby, on seeing the solution you'll realise why: it's a really hard-to-find move if you're not looking specifically for it.
The solution:
This is one ordering, it seems other orders are also possible
$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X X . X X X O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O 7 O O O B B O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . O . . 0 8 5 X O B O . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . X . . 9 3 2 O B . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . 6 1 O B . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X X . X X X O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O 7 O O O B B O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . O . . 0 8 5 X O B O . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . X . . 9 3 2 O B . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . 6 1 O B . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]4 cannot capture, because black will connect underneath and live.
$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X X 2 X X X O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 6 O X O O O B B O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . O . 1 O O X X O B O . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . X 7 3 X X O O B . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X 8 . . . O X O B . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . 0 O . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X X 2 X X X O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 6 O X O O O B B O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . O . 1 O O X X O B O . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . X 7 3 X X O O B . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X 8 . . . O X O B . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . 0 O . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]4 fills. 8 is the strongest resistance for White: it breaks the ladder on the left and stops black's snapback on the right. Black can now only get ko.
Re: Interesting problem
Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 7:31 pm
by tchan001
Actually Shaddy, there is another line for Black which prevents the placement of your "strongest resistance for white" at j2. In the second diagram, Black can play 1 at k2 instead of k4. But the result will still be ko as per your line.
Let me show you my solutions sgf which incorporates the works for this problem including the missing Black stone in Igo Hatsuyoron (from newest Chinese edition). Of course, the ideas are not really mine as I'm just a weak kyu
(;GM[1]FF[4]SZ[19]GN[]PL[B]CR[oo][po][pp][pq][pr]AW[on][pn][qn][jo][lo][mo][no][qo][hp][op][qp][gq][oq][or][rr]AB[in][jn][ln][mn][nn][oo][po][np][pp][iq][pq][hr][pr][jl] (;B[nr]C[Right];W[nq] (;B[mq] (;W[os]C[Right] (;B[mp]C[Right];W[mr] (;B[ko]C[Right];W[lp];B[lq];W[kp];B[kq] (;W[kn] (;B[jq] (;W[ir]C[Right] (;B[is]C[Right];W[qr];B[jp];W[ko];B[km];W[io];B[ho];W[ip];B[gp];W[hq];B[fq] ;W[gr] ;B[gs]C[Ko]) (;B[jr]C[Wrong];W[qr];B[jp];W[ko];B[km];W[io];B[ho];W[ip];B[gp];W[hq];B[fq] ;W[gr]) (;B[hs]C[Wrong] (;W[qr]C[Wrong];B[jp];W[ko];B[km];W[io];B[ho];W[ip];B[gp];W[hq];B[fq];W[gr]) (;W[is]C[Right])) (;B[hq]C[Wrong];W[qr];B[ms];W[ns];B[ls];W[lr];B[ks];W[kr];B[js];W[jr];B[is] ;W[hs])) (;W[io]C[Wrong];B[ms];W[ns];B[ls];W[lr];B[ks];W[kr];B[js];W[jr];B[is]) (;W[qr]C[Wrong];B[jp];W[ko];B[km];W[io];B[ho];W[ip];B[gp];W[hq];B[fq])) (;B[jr] (;W[lr];B[jp];W[ko];B[km];W[io];B[ho];W[ip];B[gp];W[hq];B[fq] ;W[gr];B[fr] ;W[jq]C[Ko]) (;W[ip];B[ms];W[ns];B[ls];W[lr];B[ks]))) (;W[jp]C[Wrong];B[ip];W[kn];B[io];W[km];B[jq];W[ko];B[ms];W[ns];B[ls];W[lr] ;B[ks];W[kr];B[js];W[jr];B[is])) (;B[lr]C[Wrong];W[qr])) (;B[ps]C[Wrong];W[mp];B[ns];W[np];B[ko];W[lp];B[lq];W[kp];B[kq];W[kn];B[jp] ;W[ko];B[km];W[io];B[ho];W[ip];B[gp];W[hq];B[fq];W[gr];B[fr] ;W[jq])) (;W[mp]C[Wrong];B[os];W[np];B[ko];W[lp];B[lq];W[kp];B[kq] (;W[kn];B[jp];W[ko];B[io];W[km];B[ll];W[lm];B[ml]) (;W[jp];B[ip];W[kn];B[io];W[km];B[jq];W[ko];B[ll]))) (;B[mp]C[Wrong];W[mq];B[lp];W[ko];B[lq];W[mr]) (;B[os]C[Wrong];W[mq];B[mr];W[lq];B[lr];W[kr];B[kq];W[jr];B[kp];W[ko];B[io] ;W[ls];B[ns] ;W[qr]C[White has more liberties])) (;B[ko]C[Wrong];W[mq]) (;B[lp]C[Wrong];W[ko];B[nq];W[nr];B[mr];W[mq];B[mp];W[lq];B[kp];W[lr]))
Re: Interesting problem
Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 10:17 pm
by Shaddy
Hm, I'd missed that before. Thanks, tchan!
Re: Interesting problem
Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 1:49 am
by HermanHiddema
How did I ever miss that?!
Great problem
I was already exploring variants like this:
$$B $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X X . X X X O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O O O B B O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . O . . . . . X O B O . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . X . . 2 4 5 O B . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . . . 3 6 1 O B . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$B $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X X . X X X O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O O O B B O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . O . . . . . X O B O . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . X . . 2 4 5 O B . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . . . 3 6 1 O B . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]