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Tami's Way

https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=4498

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Re: Tami's Way

Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 7:29 am
by Tami
EdLee wrote:Yes, Tami, and here age is a huge factor. For learning thousands of Kanji/Chinese characters and tens of thousands of life-and-death shapes,the differences between a 6-year-old, a 15-year-old, and a 40-year-old beginner are enormous and (quite?) universal


I'm not sure I agree, and I don't want to agree. Too many people give up on themselves too soon because they get a little bit older. I started studying Japanese in earnest in 2006, and I have just passed the JLPT N3. That's not very high, but it is certainly isn't easy, and it is a useful level, in that I can read books and understand what's going on in everyday situations. What if I had just said "I'm in my mid-30s now, so it's way past my best time for learning"?

It was difficult getting the first sets of kanji under my belt, and I hated how I kept forgetting characters even after writing them out over and over. But, then I bought A Guide to Remembering the Kanji by Kenneth Henshall, and found his approach gave me a foothold. Once I had that, I moved forward.

I don't like being weak at go, but I haven't accepted it as a permanent fact. Yesterday I met a Japanese 3-kyu in his mid-70s who is still trying to improve. He hasn't given up on himself. I admire that attitude - it's called living. It's facing up to reality and doing your best to achieve what you can.

Age may be an issue, but I'd soon be dead than accept it as an insurmountable obstacle to making something of myself.

Re: Tami's Way

Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 11:13 am
by Solomon
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_period_hypothesis

Re: Tami's Way

Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 11:45 am
by BobC
39 is young...

I did a third PT degree at 41 and completed it before any of my younger peers (and held down a full time job + 2 young kids). It just takes discipline and critical evaluation. Very few 6 year olds are able to define optimum learning patterns - they might do OK if you steer them.

Actually, having known a lot of world tramps I am amazed at how slowly kids learn new languages. Considering they have the continual focus of parents driven to communicate with them. One of my very bilingual colleagues reckons that he can sound fluent (in patchs) in a western language in around three months. Mainly because he knows how to learn languages.

Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 1:00 pm
by EdLee
Tami, I am likely older than you and I have not given up on improving at Go. :)
I also said none of the things you mentioned: I never said to give up on learning.
I think John or someone else posted recently that an 80-year-old Japanese lady finally made 4 dan in Go.

All I said is age is a huge factor, and it is: if we look at the starting age
of all professional sports and in pro Go and chess, the age factor is indisputable.
So as far as an "insurmountable obstacle," I would say making pro is one at our age.

But not for learning or improving at Go. Good luck! :mrgreen:

Re: Tami's Way

Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 1:44 pm
by Tsuyoku
Maybe you need to work harder at a higher age, for the same result. But that's nowhere near the same thing as improvement being impossible.

So long as your memory is still functional, you should obviously be able to learn.

Re:

Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 12:54 am
by Mivo
EdLee wrote:All I said is age is a huge factor, and it is: if we look at the starting age of all professional sports and in pro Go and chess, the age factor is indisputable.


It is a factor, but the size of it is disputable. :) Kids live in an extremely learning-friendly environment, where everything is focused around education. Most of their day is spent in school or doing homework, they have all the support they need and they are always surrounded by teachers and other students. Their whole lives revolve around acquiring new information, retaining it, and applying it.

When you're an adult, a huge amount of your time is spent on practicing what you already know. In our jobs, much of what we do is the same that we always do, with only slight variations. It's routine, and if we were cassette records, we'd be in "repeat" mode rather than "record" mode a large portion of the time. There are also numerous responsibilities that adults have, ranging from the mundane stuff like shopping and cooking to maintaining social relationships, and of course there are family and children, all eating up time. Most adults simply don't have time or energy to study and learn the way a child does and can.

There are no doubt biological aspects too, but I wonder what the results would be if you sent a 40 year old, talented beginner to a dojo for a couple of years. :)

I quite like Tami's attitude. Being exactly the same age, I struggle quite a bit with the big 40 looming around the corner, not just in regard to Go, so I'm certainly eager to believe that age is overrated, but those traces of a midlife crisis aside, I do feel that "I'm too old" is all too frequently just an excuse and a cop-out, or an easy-to-believe explanation that completely ignores other aspects or conditions.

Re: Tami's Way

Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 8:15 pm
by Tami
As you know, the path of improvement isn't smooth. It's to do with a phase of learning that I haven't seen people discuss here so much, which is "Relational Memory". Basically, when you learn new ideas or information, it takes time for the brain to sort out the connections and to relate the new material with already learned things.

I do lots of different things, but essentially I'm most concentrated on developing my reading skill and re-evaluating concepts that I thought I had understood, but presumably don't really understand.

A lot of my games are really dreadful. I'm seeing a lot of possibilities, but sometimes I try a little too hard. I see shadows and mirages - threats that aren't really dangerous, and opportunities that can only exist in the far distance. So, I defend when there's no need and I attack when there's no chance.

Other times, my mental processes just get completely mixed up. Yesterday, I played a game on KGS, and read out an interesting situation. My choice was to play a normal move to settle a group, or to play a kikashi in the opposite corner, which would create a ladder block, which in turn would give me the chance to make a better sequence to settle my group. So, I confidently began my sequence, and my opponent initiated the ladder. Then I realised I had simply forgotten to play my kikashi...

The best thing to do is to have a laugh about it. It's only a temporary thing (I hope!). Another relevant point is that I generally only play late at night, as I try to devote the daytime to work or study - tiredness does affect me, but strangely more often at 11PM than at 2AM.

I'm working through the Segoe Tesuji Dictionary. I have owned it for years, but I only used to do the C stream problems. Actually, that helped quite a lot. Now, I'm doing all the problems, and I'm finding that I can! My ability to visualise seems to be increasing noticeably - more variations "flow", and I find I can hold shapes steadily in my mind for longer. I am working at it in short bursts: ten or fifteen minutes at a time, spent on one or two problems.

Okay, I probably ought to give this journal a break now. I'm repeating myself.

Re: Tami's Way

Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 7:44 pm
by Tami
Just a quick update. An important thing to remember with studying go or anything else is that it takes time. Once you get past the beginner stages, even the most rapid progress can seem very slow, especially if you're not patient.

There are not only many things to learn, but also you have to learn how to put them together. It's not only a process of building new understanding, but also of changing existing understanding.

Right now, I've decided to do less tsumego and concentrate more on strategy books and whole-board problems. I've found re-reading Attack and Defence very enlightening, and I am enjoying a book of Takemiya's called アマが理解できない４つ常識　(Four Pieces of Common Sense Amateurs Can't Grasp). Also, I am going through Get Strong at Handicap Go, which I also recommend.

For me, it seems my weaknesses are more in the fuseki and in strategy than tactical, although definitely I need to address L&D patterns again. For a while, I've noticed that although I can see a lot of tactics, the tactics in my games often seem to favour the opponent, which means that usually they must be playing better strategically.

If go could be boiled down to principles only, then it would be easy to play. The difficulties are that often it's not easy to see which principles to apply, how to apply them, and to choose between them when two or more principles suggest very different ways of proceeding. This is where strategy books like the ones I mentioned come in helpful: the more you read them, the more precedents you have to refer to, and the easier it is to choose. The proof of the pudding is in the tasting, and since I have begun to win games with the help of things I have learned from those books, I think it's a good method.

Finally, there's a delay between knowing and being able to apply. In language acquisition, you naturally learn to listen before you speak, and to read before you write, and in the same way, it can seem to take a long while before you can get past knowing something and to being able to do it automatically. Often, the pro's move makes sense after we see it played - but the thing is that the pro has learned to see it before it's played!

But, it takes time :)

Re: Tami's Way

Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 8:33 am
by Tami
Here are some recent "lessons" I would like to record before I forget.

* Look at the whole board! This is coming up time and again in Takemiya's book, and also I remember a very strong coach from the Nihon Kiin remarking to me two weeks ago that "most people focus on a small area, about 7x7, but the go board is big!". (If you are reading this Dave Sigaty, could you please remind me of his name?)

* Don't attack, don't defend without a clear reason. If it's not clear what your attack gains, or that your defence is necessary, you are in danger of "passing". A gain can be either territory or in power, and necessity is dictated by life and death, or shape. Takemiya, especially, emphasises the importance of playing good shape - he says that territory comes, at the end of the game, from having played in good shape.

* Reject moves that are "ineffectual". In the Japanese books, the word "響かない" (hibikanai - "does not resound") is used, and that expresses the problem of lukewarm moves beautifully, for my money.

* "The biggest move is to make/take a base" (一番大きいのは「根拠の手」). I got this from Ishida Yoshio's book on fuseki, アマが知らない布石絶対の急所, which I bought this afternoon. Much the same idea comes up a lot in Get Strong at Handicap Go and in the Takemiya book.

* Watch your back! It's so easy to get carried away attacking, that you don't notice weaknesses in your own position.

* Sabaki can be unbelievably powerful. If you can sacrifice cleverly, it's possible to turn an enemy area into your own fortress.

I have also seen many shapes and patterns recently - I don`t plan to memorise them slavishly. Instead, I shall review my books in timely fashion, and I shall remember the important things naturally. Up to now, I have tried to memorise things in isolation, but recently I have found that learning techniques in context is both much more enjoyable, and easier too. It's the difference between memorising word lists, and picking up new words from conversation and reading.

I'm still losing a lot, but I can sense a change in the wind.

Re: Tami's Way

Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:51 am
by Tami
Right now, I'm finding go extremely frustrating.

For some time I have been attempting to change my style, as one way of breaking through the limitations of my understanding. Usually, I would say I am distinctly biased toward influence, and I like the star point, takamoku and such like. Indeed, the last time I experienced a jump in strength was when I started to appreciate the power of influence a little better - but that was nearly ten years ago.

So, against all my inclinations, I am opening with 3-4 points and attempting to play for territory. But it just does not work for me! My opponents always seem to end up forcing me into passive, shrinking positions.

I don't mind losing to learn, but it's getting tedious losing most of the time.

For one thing, in territorial games, I get very confused about what is a big point and what isn't.

One idea to try is to be more consistent. That is, to trust in the traditional order of play:

1) Corners 2) Enclosure or Shimari 3) Extension in front of shimari 4) Tsume 5) Jump into centre

I find it hard to keep taking these points when the opponent takes a lead in influence - while many people are unreasonably envious of territory, my tendency is to envy the opponent's influence. If I am to understand territorial go better, maybe I have to stick to my plan, and trust I can make enough points to weather any storms a powered-up opponent might be able to produce.

Re: Tami's Way

Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:39 am
by Tami
Possibly a little bit of an insight.

Taking (potential) territory is big, but you have to notice the right moment to start playing actively. It is very tempting to defend territory, but that is just passive, and it is virtually a sure-lose strategy.

This leads to the next step, which is to be willing to give up territory in order to stay in the game. It's almost like a loan situation: if you take an early lead in territory at the expense of influence, then you have to be prepared to pay it back over time, or else you might end up being forced to pay it back. It's better to fight back while you still can by accepting exchanges.

And the step after that involves positional judgement. Not being a "numbers person", I don't enjoy estimating scores and relative values, and possibly you might agree that an influence-oriented style does seems to suit more verbally or visually oriented minds better than a territorially directed style. But if you are playing territorially, and you are trying to decide whether to defend or offer an exchange, then you have to estimate the relative values of the affected areas; fighting spirit is all very well and good, but as Catalin Taranu explained in his endgame lecture, it's not a good idea to exchange your 40 point area for a 20 point one, even though you prefer to strike back instead of defending.

Finally, I need to remind myself that deliberately playing outside your comfort zone, in unfamiliar, even distasteful patterns will certainly lead to a lot of defeats, but it's well worth doing if it changes and improves your overall understanding.

Re: Tami's Way

Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:21 am
by Solomon
I've never really understood why people strive to play for territory, or for influence. Why not both? Or better yet, why set yourself to play one way or the other in the first place? It's not like when I'm playing, I'm thinking to myself 'okay, for this game I'm going to play 3-4s and 3-3s, get solid territory, and try to reduce my opponent's influence as much as possible.' or 'I'll play 4-4s and 5-4s, build a massive moyo while giving up corners and some side, and try to maximize my influence as much as possible while reducing his territory'. It's a very rigid way of thinking. I just go with the flow and try to get the best result without regarding style.

Re: Tami's Way

Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:58 pm
by Tami
Araban wrote:I've never really understood why people strive to play for territory, or for influence. Why not both?


I agree with you, Araban. But I'm doing what I'm doing on purpose, to try to gain more insight into an area of the game I find difficult to understand. If I played my usual way, I would attempt to play for whatever seemed more relevant to the position at hand, but then I would probably also fall back into familiar patterns and ways of thinking, and might not learn anything new.

I think I have gained a better appreciation of several things:

1) The need to play actively - paying back where necessary and making exchanges instead of just defending
2) The need to make positional judgements before committing strategically
3) How useful it is to exploit weak spots in a moyo

Re: Tami's Way

Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 8:37 am
by Tami
An unexpected idea...

First, it should be obvious that thickness needs room to expand, but I didn't really grasp the reason before.

In an exchange of territory for thickness, it is crucial for the thickness (or influence for that matter) to be put to work. The move that expands it or makes it work is going to be really big in value, because otherwise the thickness will end up as overconcentration. In other words, if you take thickness and expand (or attack) from it, then you are being efficient, but if you fail to do so or cannot do so, then you will just end up with a lot of stones close together.

Likewise, if you play an erasing move, it is very painful for the opponent, because it causes them to play either close to their own stones, or where they have little chance of succeeding anyhow (i.e., the very area they sacrificed to get the thickness).

There may be bigger-looking moves, but because of the exchange behind it, the thickness-expanding/erasing move tends to be urgent, because it is the one that justifies or renders unfair the exchange.

I arrived at this viewpoint after doing a number of fuseki exercises, in which the answer often seemed puzzling, until explained in this way.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Not the best possible example, but es klappt
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . a . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


In this position, Black and White have exchanged a contract. White has granted Black a certain amount of influence in exchange for the certain territory in the top left.

There are many plausible moves. You could, for instance, treat the top left lightly and make a sanrensei at A. You could play lightly at B. You could play out the ordinary joseki, and get this position:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Not the best possible example, but es klappt
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


But, plausible as it looks, it is much better for White, IMHO, because Black's influence is being restrained, while White is getting the chance to enclose the corner.

However, there is another way to play (see Get Strong at the Opening, No. 33).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Not the best possible example, but es klappt
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . 3 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The point here is that Black is putting his side of the original exchange hard to work, and the overall effect is very efficient.

And this brings me to understand, just a little more deeply, that every exchange or skirmish has a meaning, and you need to play so that you do not lose your meaning or so that you cause the opponent to lose their meaning.

If you enclose a corner, it means you have spent two moves in one place, while the opponent has perhaps taken two moves across a larger area. Therefore, to make full value of your enclosure, you have to challenge your opponent's wider, but probably thin, position, using your enclosure as a base. If you do not exploit your side of the bargain, then you are living a life of dissipation; and if you cannot exploit it, then you've been had!

A better example is this one, No. 92 from Get Strong at the Opening. If you are interested to see, there are other problems in the same part of the book with the same basic idea.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Putting thickness to work
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X X X X . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O . O O X . . . . . . . b . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Now, based on my misunderstanding of O Meien's "zone press park" thingie, which I have only been able to glean from the internet as I don't have a copy of the book, and misguided by the proverb about playing far from thickness, I have often played moves like a in the past. After all, b is all of six lines away from Black's thickness, while a is sensational nine lines distant from the star point in the upper right.

But, the best move is b. It makes the thickness work! Therefore it justifies the bargain black made in the lower left earlier.

It's hard to imagine it happening in a position like this, but I'm sure most of you have shared the painful experience of having had thickness, and then playing in the wrong direction. Eventually, the thickness turned to heaviness, and there was no choice but to make eyes, which is the ultimate humiliation for a once-thick and mighty group.

It could be that a is in fact bigger than b, at least territorially, but b is more urgent, because it prevents black's exchange in the lower left from becoming pointless. And, didn't Jim Kerwin 1p say something like an urgent move was one that prevented one of your earlier plays from becoming meaningless?

It is said that territory is like cash in hand, while thickness is like money in the bank. I think there's a lot of depth to that statement. If you have invested money, you have to wait for a long time before you get dividends for it; but the investment grows (hopefully!). If you don't invest, but let the thickness just sit there, then it will become less and less valuable, like money under the mattress. That's why my old notion of "Deadweight Value of Thickness" is probably invalid. (You can read my thoughts about that on Sensei's Library, should you be so inclined.) If you have cash, you have to keep getting some more once what you have is spent. The difference is that with money in the bank, you make the money do the work; with cash, you have to do the work.

And isn't that so true of go? If you make a thick game, you can feel as though you are behind for a long time, but if you have put the thickness to work, little by little the returns start to come in. If you play territorially, you start off with easy money, but as the game wears on, you have to work harder and harder; after all, the two stones you spent on your enclosure (for instance) cover only a small area, while the opponent's stones on the side cover a greater area.

Small wonder, then, that Takemiya finds his style "natural", while people like Cho Chikun or O Rissei are noted for the skills at sabaki and shinogi.

Re: Tami's Way

Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:41 pm
by gogameguru
Interesting musings Tami. It sounds like you've had a go epiphany :).

To some extent that's what we were talking about earlier too.
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