I h8 Tsumego

[emeraldemon]

I've never been much of a fan of tsumego, and never systematically studied them at any point in my go career, yet I still reached 4 dan.

What? What about this thread?

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=4448

[HermanHiddema]

I've never been much of a fan of tsumego, and never systematically studied them at any point in my go career, yet I still reached 4 dan.

What? What about this thread?

http://lifein19x19.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=4448

I didn't say I was bad a them

I sometimes enjoy doing one or two, now and then, but I don't really have the patience to do lots of them or do them systematically.

So for me, my reading strength comes from playing games, and reviewing them, not from tsumego.

[John Fairbairn]

Broadly speaking I think you can divide tsumego books into two types. High level books are those such as the Xuanxuan Qijing (Gateway To All Marvels - literally) which can best be regarded as for entertainment. Low level books are the utilitarian kind, meant for drilling or seeing the most basic patterns. These range from classics such as Gokyo Shumyo to the ten-a-penny problem books and magazine inserts that flood the market.

But there is a great defect in the low-level, and I have never really understood why there is so little attempt to remedy it: there is too much variety.

Bear with me and accept the analogy (which I can defend) of doing tsumego as being rather like learning idioms in a language. I think you would find it odd if a book purporting to teach you idioms gave you a random list of a huge range of types of idiom: a proverb followed by a phrasal verb, a colloquialism followed by a quotation from the Bible, a Shakespearian novelty followed by a piece of internet slang. Yet, in essence, that randomness is what you get with almost every tsumego book.

For learning a language a separate book on Shakespeare's contributions, a separate book on "making out" in English, a separate book on phrasal verbs, etc is what you expect, and what you get. Why aren't tsumego books equally specific?

I would wager that if you were given a book of tsumego problems featuring only the tombstone tesuji, or only the golden stork standing on one leg tesuji, or only the elbow-lock tesuji, or only the cork-in-the bottle tesuji, or only L-groups, etc. etc, you would very soon not just learn but absorb that tesuji, and potential examples would magically leap out at you in your games, like heavy rain stotting off the ground. Not only that, I think you would enjoy the process, because even if the first couple of problems taxed you a lot, once you recognised what to look for you would rattle of the rest. Such postive feedback cannot fail to induce a warm glow.

So (with a very small number of exceptions) why don't we see such books?

[Cassandra]

So (with a very small number of exceptions) why don't we see such books?

There is a series of five books on Tsume-Go by Masaaki Fukui, which main theme seems to be "shortage of liberties" and "Oiotoshi".

詰碁
のんびり・じっくり
楽しみながら強くなる

I hope that a translation to English is something like

Tsume-Go
At leisure - without rushing
Enjoy getting stronger

The level given has a range from 2 kyu ... 1 dan to 3 dan ... 5 dan.

My experience with these book's problems is similar to what you have mentioned.

[xed_over]

But there is a great defect in the low-level, and I have never really understood why there is so little attempt to remedy it: there is too much variety.

...

So (with a very small number of exceptions) why don't we see such books?

I agree.

This is what I like best about the GoChild site, is that it does a good job of grouping similar types of problems together (at least at its lower levels)

[snorri]

So (with a very small number of exceptions) why don't we see such books?

I think that the Baduktopia four-volume series "Essential Life and Death" is exactly like this. The problems are and not just leveled for difficulty, they are categorized for techniques (e.g., 1-2 point, center of three stones, etc.), with not too many examples per technique. The authors also felt that existing collections were disorganized and were thus frustrating to players.

[tchan001]

For learning a language a separate book on Shakespeare's contributions, a separate book on "making out" in English, a separate book on phrasal verbs, etc is what you expect, and what you get. Why aren't tsumego books equally specific?

I would wager that if you were given a book of tsumego problems featuring only the tombstone tesuji, or only the golden stork standing on one leg tesuji, or only the elbow-lock tesuji, or only the cork-in-the bottle tesuji, or only L-groups, etc. etc, you would very soon not just learn but absorb that tesuji, and potential examples would magically leap out at you in your games, like heavy rain stotting off the ground. Not only that, I think you would enjoy the process, because even if the first couple of problems taxed you a lot, once you recognised what to look for you would rattle of the rest. Such postive feedback cannot fail to induce a warm glow.

So (with a very small number of exceptions) why don't we see such books?

http://tchan001.wordpress.com/2010/04/2 ... ion%C2%A0/

[Solomon]

Read what Cho Chikun has to say.
http://tchan001.wordpress.com/2011/06/0 ... lculation/

Found this very eye-opening, thanks!

[John Fairbairn]

I would make a distinction between problems organised by either vital point or final goal and those organised by technique.

Making a category based on, say, the 1-2 point is better than nothing, but it is like simply telling a child learning to button up his clothes that "this is a button". The technique he really has to learn is to put the button securely in the buttonhole. Go problems organised at that level of technique are very rare. There are a couple of examples in the series tchan points to (and which I have), but even that series relies mainly on goal groupings such as seki and ko.

[BobC]

It's very costly but:

http://weiqiok.com/asp/English.asp

sorts problems as to shape. I've got a feeling that the site is an extremely good learning provision. BUT - it's in Chinese

[Mivo]

I enjoy doing tsumego, and actually prefer it over playing the game. It's quite possibly the absence of the competitive ("versus") aspect of the activity, and it offers rewards in small, frequent doses.

[tchan001]

The exceptions in terms of English language books in my opinion are:

* Art of Capturing Stones
* Art of Connecting Stones
* Counting Liberties and Winning Capturing Races
* Key Concepts in Life and Death: Nakade and Under the Stones
* Magic of Placements
* Magic on The First Line
* Mastering Ladders
* Monkey Jump Workshop
* Rescue and Capture
* Vital Points and Skillful Finesse for Sabaki

[tchan001]

Maybe there is a market for some English author to organize a series of such problem books as suggested by JF.

[emeraldemon]

One difficulty I could see with such a collection: if the readers already know that they are in the "two-stone edge squeeze" section (or "tombstone" as JF calls it), they may only read far enough to find the two-stone edge squeeze, without actually verifying whether it works.

It seems like such a problem collection should also have problems where the tombstone doesn't quite work: maybe the tesuji is there, but doesn't kill, or maybe it looks like the tesuji is there but it isn't. So each problem you have to ask yourself whether the shape you're learning does or does not work in this case.

Similarly if you're in an "eye vs. no-eye race" section, the book could have mostly problems where forming an eye is key to winning the race, but a few thrown in where forming the eye is actually a mistake and causes you to lose.

Actually the more I think about this, the more I like the idea! There's no reason problems on SL couldn't be organized this way...