Life In 19x19

I agree that its not horribly slow. Its slow enough that the pros don't prefer it.

Probably for most amateur games the difference is not noticeable.

illluck wrote:I play double 3-3 a lot, and don't agree that 3-3 is slow - it takes the corner in one move just like 4-4. I think the issue is with it being low and also harder to develop.

I think what you meant was that both 3-3 and 4-4 do not urge a shimari move, allowing you to move on freely.

The rest of this post is not in response to you.

4-4 exerts influence while claiming no territory. With two more moves, the 4-4 can be enclosed, in contrast to the 3-4 which only requires one additional move. 3-3 is a territorial move, it takes the corner in one move. This is why it is sometimes used when a person wishes to rapidly develop and move on. Indeed, a move on the 4-4 invites the 3-3, gladly giving up the corner all the while.

Through the natural course of play, a person might find themselves wishing a stone which was previously on the third line, would be on the fourth, or the other way around. This is just another part of strategy.

Of course, a person could play 3-3 under their 4-4, taking corner but, well....

The 5-4 and 5-3 also share this idea of influence over straight territory.

The biggest notion I would stress about playing in the corner, regardless of your move is that you placed the first stone there. This makes all the difference.

What is meant by "slow" is a bit ambiguous. I generally hear pros describe openings using the 3-3 and 4-4 points as relatively "fast."

EDIT: I'm not saying those who say the 3-3 is "slow" are wrong--but rather it isn't clear what they mean by "slow". I do understand (at least a little) why it is described as "fast."

judicata wrote:What is meant by "slow" is a bit ambiguous. I generally hear pros describe openings using the 3-3 and 4-4 points as relatively "fast."

EDIT: I'm not saying those who say the 3-3 is "slow" are wrong--but rather it isn't clear what they mean by "slow". I do understand (at least a little) why it is described as "fast."

I'll agree with that.

I don't know if pros actually call the 3-3 point slow, though I do know that fashion has strongly moved away from it. I would say that it's fast in that a 3-3 stone is self-sufficient: it doesn't look for a second stone right away the way a 3-4 or 3-5 point does. Thus, it allows a fast paced style where you get around the board a lot in the opening. I think that's why Go Seigen liked it. If it's slow, it's slow in that it just doesn't do enough--combining its influence and territory, you just don't get enough, compared to the other corner points.

Those would be different meanings of fast and slow, though obviously also related.

Side question: At what stage should one start experimenting with openings like the mini-Chinese etc?

Boidhre wrote:Side question: At what stage should one start experimenting with openings like the mini-Chinese etc?

When you feel like it.

Boidhre wrote:Side question: At what stage should one start experimenting with openings like the mini-Chinese etc?

Move 3?