Life In 19x19

My local go club is modest (let's say 5 regular members, most of the time we are 3). Most of us have the same level (between 5k and 10k), so the games are always nice, but I think we won't improve much.

I think that in a go club, you improve up to your limit or to the level of the stronger player. I was reluctant to go there when I was far weaker than them, but little by little, I came to their level and feels really happier to go. I don't regret forcing myself to go when I was weaker. I take now far more pleasure to play in my club than to play online, where you have nearly no exchanges with your opponent.

About one and a half year I showed up four times at my local go games evening. At that time I was around 25k (beginning of October) to 20k (end of October). The weakest player there was 5k, so the average difference between me and them was around 20 stones. Although all of them were nice and patient, you could feel that it was no fun - neither for the regular players nor for the newbie - to get crushed easily in spite of nine handi stones. I decided not to go back there until I am 4k KGS (or 7k EGF which is about the same) which will allow meaningful games for everyone.

judicata wrote:Self-fulfilling: if low/mid-kyu players don't go to clubs, low/mid-kyu players won't go to clubs.

That's true of course, so it depends on how many potential players there are on that level. If I knew that the probability is high that there are players of similar strength as myself, I would give it a try, but if I knew that there will be no such player, it would be useless to show up.

Magicwand wrote:they will lose some game on purpose, and when you think you can win they will start to take money from you.

Good to know. That smells like cheating. It's another reason to feel put off.

judicata wrote:Otherwise, be happy just to watch games, and also keep an eye out for other weaker players to come along. Beyond that, it is up to you to determine whether you're comfortable hanging around.

Watching, concentrating on what is going on and what will be played next is a great way to get better, if you are comfortable with hanging around.

Players of all strengths gain from a go club. There is no strength difference that cannot be covered by handicap and smaller boards. Besides, small boards are interesting for themselves.

The issue is not so much what ought to be the case or what benefits someone could gain given the right conditions, but what actually happens with low-level kyu players at clubs with members so far above their playing ability. It would be nice if there were more club members like xed_over, but I think he's probably unique. It takes a special dedication to devote your club time to teaching others.

So how many of you are like xed_over and devote your club time teaching weaker players?

deja wrote:The issue is not so much what ought to be the case or what benefits someone could gain given the right conditions, but what actually happens with low-level kyu players at clubs with members so far above their playing ability. It would be nice if there were more club members like xed_over, but I think he's probably unique. It takes a special dedication to devote your club time to teaching others.

So how many of you are like xed_over and devote your club time teaching weaker players?

"Devoting" implies all of my time; no, I don't do that, and nor does anyone else at my club.

However, we teach at least 20 beginners each year, many of whom carry on playing beyond beginner-level. Everyone contributes to teaching, no beginner is left waiting for a game for long, and we see recruitment as one of our primary aims. This is - in my admittedly biased opinion - what every Go club should be like.

Well, I exaggerate; I have no problem in principle with people having a club exclusively for stronger players. At the start of the academic year, when we have the most complete beginners, we reserve one evening a week for teaching and one for playing; beginners are encouraged to come to the latter session, but we prioritise pairing them against each other and experienced players against each other, as opposed to the former session where we prioritise teaching games. A club that doesn't encourage teaching, though, should in my opinion say so explicitly wherever they are advertised.

We are too small a community not to work hard on recruitment; without working to encourage beginners to improve, we will get no new opponents, and we will die. Furthermore, it is, in my experience, far, far easier for a beginner to learn to play from real live teachers over the board; we all have a responsibility to be those real live teachers.

Yesterday, I was co-opted to the Council of the British Go Association, and appointed Chair of the Clubs and Membership Committee. Since I have been spouting these passionate and hard-line opinions on recruitment, clubs and teaching for the last couple of years, I can only assume that they agree with me and want me to try to make everyone else think so too.

Quite frankly, I wish players of all levels would show up at the club. A lot of clubs are small, and they can use all the attendance they can get.

My club had two 4 kyu regulars, including myself. There are some other single digit kyu local players who are technically members of the chapter, but they show up so infrequently that they might as well be ghosts. The rest of the players that show up are DDK, and half of them are 20 kyu or weaker. But I'm glad when they show up, because otherwise it would be just two guys playing go, not a club. Sometimes myself and my rival would forgo our weekly game to be sure that the weaker players would have reason to come back. But even when we played we'd be sure to only play one game so that we could spend time with the weaker players.

Well, attendance has been so bad that we don't have a club any more. And I'm actually pretty bitter about it, because I worked pretty hard to try to keep the club together, make a web site, make weekly problems, try to organize people, etc. So if a weaker player doesn't think they'll benefit from going to a club because all the other players are too strong or whatever, maybe they should think if they'd benefit from not having a club at all. The same thought should occur to stronger players who don't feel like playing against newcomers.

It doesn't matter if you get slaughtered in H9 games, or even if you just get to watch stronger players. Having an opportunity to play other local players at all is not something everyone has, and you should take advantage of it.

deja wrote:So how many of you are like xed_over and devote your club time teaching weaker players?

Now, slow down just a bit. Just because I like to spend most of my club time teaching beginners, does not make me any better than others who don't
just different

I've encountered plenty of beginners who just "waste my time". Sure, they don't mean to, but they just don't "get it" either. And its rare, but there are some people who I'd just rather not spend time with.

It shouldn't be too hard to be welcoming and helpful to beginners without having to "devote" all one's club time to them

My question was too preachy and "devote" was a poor choice of words. Sharing any amount of your club time teaching beginners is enough in my book. I'm drawing on my own experiences, which obviously can't be generalized. Nevertheless, I think such wide disparities in strength make it difficult to play meaningful games regardless of the handicap. A teaching game is something entirely different. The purpose is to teach not to even the playing field for a competitive game.

What I'm suggesting is that trying to play even games, or anything approximating such, is a mistake under the circumstances that Actorios described. I think it would be better to give teaching games with that expressed purpose. I remember the first club game I played. It was against a 4 dan on a 13x13 board, with a nine stone handicap. He destroyed me while eating his dinner and talking with another member. I was thrilled to have the game in any case.

I am going to be controversial here and state my strongly held opinion:

There is no requirement to go to a Go club at any level!!!

This might surprise some people, but that's what I believe.
Practically it means this: If you feel like going to a club, go, if you don't, don't, regardless of rank/level/age/gender/whatever.

I know, I know, you're not supposed to say things like that, but I can't watch the youngsters stumbling blindly in the dark in these Go-shark infested waters.

Well, I hope somebody has already said that, I have not read the whole thread.

As one who runs a club I'm just going to repeat:

Any level player should go to a club if you want to spend F2F time with other go players. It doesn't matter what your rank is. I'd expect that everyone at a go club is there to primarily to play, and hopefully you should be able to find someone who'll enjoy a game with you no matter what the comparative skill level is. Personally, I've played 30k-3p at my club and I can only think of a few games that I wouldn't have wanted to play after the fact. So I try to find something from almost every game. I'd hope there are many others like this to be found in other clubs.

Bruce "Club Kid" Young

I am going to be controversial here and state my strongly held opinion:

There is no requirement to go to a Go club at any level!!!

This might surprise some people, but that's what I believe.
Practically it means this: If you feel like going to a club, go, if you don't, don't, regardless of rank/level/age/gender/whatever.

I know, I know, you're not supposed to say things like that, but I can't watch the youngsters stumbling blindly in the dark in these Go-shark infested waters.

Well, I hope somebody has already said that, I have not read the whole thread.

yup. I guess it depends on whether you like joining clubs or not really. I think you get better chances to play Go on the internet. Stumbling youngsters wouldn't bother me though, I stumble enough - it's just not an efficient use of my time.

Helel wrote:

Araban wrote:The level is irrelevant, people of all levels should go to a Go club (and also feel welcome). Before the Go club at my hometown I visit once a week died off after several crucial members stopped going, I would always try to pay a visit when I had time even though I was the strongest player by over 9 stones and it was certainly not an experience that would help me improve. But that's not the point of going to a Go club; it's to meet new and old people who share similar interests with you, to create new friendships and just socialize with people who share an interest with you.

I think Araban's sentiments are really nice, but can he be sure that being crushed at nine stones didn't contribute to their quitting?

I've had the opposite experience when being crushed as black in a 9-stone game. I feel like I'm wasting the better player's time.

If the strength difference is too big, play on a smaller board. Adjust the komi/handicap after each game.

Depends on the club.

At my club (Baltimore), you have to walk up a half flight of stairs.

In Washington, you need to walk down a full flight.

The bigger the building, the more important it is to know which level.