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Re: Research in Go - 2011

Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 8:11 am
by hyperpape
RobertJasiek wrote:
Knotwilg wrote:you seem to have missed the point of John's statement.


No, but he has overstated it and understated existing Western go books with non-specializing approach.
I don't think so. It is not just the non-specializing approach. It is the non-specializing approach combined with depth and (presumably) some systematicity. The latter two are where Western books do not match their counterparts. Books like Lessons in the Fundamentals of Go are non-specific, but are not systematic. Systematic books (which seem to be most often for beginners) are usually not in the depth you can get from an encyclopedia like John mentions.

Re: Research in Go - 2011

Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 8:32 am
by Bill Spight
Knotwilg wrote:Thanks Bill and John to relate to the question. So we may assume there is indeed going on some Go research, both at the typical academic level of specialty that is of interest to none but the authors and one respected member of this community, or at the more mundane and holistic level.


I am reminded of my first go research paper, delivered at a small conference, with maybe a couple of dozen in the audience. Afterwards I quipped that there were more people in the audience than readers of my paper. (Actually, it has gotten more citations than I thought it would. ;))

My research tends to be abstract, so that it may apply to various go situations. Other research, such as in tsumego or joseki, tends to apply to more specific situations. And then there is the research of Go Seigen. :) He has written five volumes in a series on his research on recent games.

http://www.amazon.co.jp/呉清源-最新打碁研究%E3%80%885〉-呉-清源/dp/4416507100/ref=pd_sim_b3

Vol. 5 on Amazon, Japan. :) I expect that his is the most holistic research of all.

Re: Research in Go - 2011

Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 8:44 am
by Bill Spight
On the question of holism, at least in the context of learning go, my favorite method of study has always been pro games. They have everything. :) At least implicitly. ;) Shusai Honinbo said that playing over 1,000 pro games was enough to advance to pro level. (I think you also need talent. ;))

I know that many strong players preach tsumego, tsumego, tsumego. Not to underestimate its importance, but there is more to the game, IMO. ;) There are many specifics about the game that are worth studying. But I think that the best place for the holism that Knotwilg and John are talking about is in pro games. :)

Re: Research in Go - 2011

Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 9:31 am
by RobertJasiek
Bill, concerning PONs, they appear to be a special case of the more general n-alive, which allows also negative n for the dead cases. (Positive or zero: attacker first. Negative: defender first. *-alive = pass-alive. Similarly: n-connected.)

Shusai / pro after studying 1000 pro games: In those days, people spent much more for a single game than nowadays. Even Go Seigen spoke of just 20 minutes per game. With more available games, this has become an option:)

Re: hyperpape: Of course there are systematic books or other overviews with less depth than supposedly in the encyclopedia mentioned by John. This does not imply "great detail" though, maybe it implies relatively "greater detail" than books you describe, but this is a much weaker statement than an absolute "great detail".

Re: Research in Go - 2011

Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 9:55 am
by TMark
Robert, I think that you have missed your vocation. You should have been a film critic. Of course, you wouldn't have to watch any of the films; just comment on what other people say about them.

Best wishes.

Re: Research in Go - 2011

Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 10:28 am
by John Fairbairn
It is the non-specializing approach combined with depth and (presumably) some systematicity. The latter two are where Western books do not match their counterparts.


It is hard for people who have not seen the above-mentioned encyclopaedia to realise how much depth there can be. I thought, therefore, that it would be useful to give a partial explanation of the book.

As to size, it has 715 large (not quite A4) pages with small type. It's so massive it took a panel of seven contributors, three of whom were pros (highest 7-dan, and all the type who write their own stuff).

As to depth, consider one portion of the middle-game section - the one on invasions and erasures. The first section is on types of invasion (six) and spreads over 51 diagrams. The next section is on selecting the invasion point - 95 diagrams. The section on standard invasions and how to reply covers 170 diagrams. Then come 59 diagrams on standard erasures, with finally 104 diagrams on invading and erasing moyos. That's a total of 479 diagrams over 74 pages. That's no record, of course, but these are quality explanation diagrams, not problems and their solutions. Actually, the encyclopaedia has separate sections for life and death, tesuji, etc that relate to this section. On top of that, this middle-game portion has equally extensive treatments of attack and defence, settling weak groups, the value of thickness, and sacrifice stones.

As to balance, overall, the middle-game portion gets 178 pages, compared to just 115 for josekis. I may have lost touch with the English literature but I suspect that, if anything, the ratio might be reversed here, and if you strip out the problem type format which tend to characterise many of our middle-game books (the encyclopaedia has its own problem sections, don't forget), I suspect that josekis get a bigger slice of the pie over here. If so, I suggest that's unbalanced.

As to quality, you will have to trust me on this, but Zhao Zhiyun's reputation is well deserved. Not being a Japanese 9-dan, he certainly knows more than western amateurs. Apart from the fact that the encyclopaedia focuses on proper explanations rather than problems, when you look at the diagrams you tend to recognise your own games. Japanese authors often focus on positions that are interesting because they are unusual and/or diagrams taken from the pro author's games, which are hardly likely to contain the errors that we make. The encyclopaedia, in contrast, is called "Practical" for good reason. For example, you know the situation where you get a two-space group on the third line between two enemy positions. You're never quite sure whether you should be knocking your knees as you anxiously await the attack or patting yourself on the back for having driven a wedge into the enemy's heart. Either way, you are usually even less sure how to play this sort of position. The encyclopaedia tells you. I can't recall seeing that in Japanese or Korean books, let alone western ones.

As to being systematic, you'll have seen a few lists of e.g. typical L shapes, with and without legs and hanes. Useful, aren't they? But where are these lists when you need them, and what about all the other standard shapes that have no name? The advantage of the encyclopaedia is that it gives all the shapes you've read about and many you haven't, and they are all together in one place, as a superb reference tool (and nicely laid out, BTW).

As to being holistic, apart from (of course) fuseki, joseki, middle game, endgame, tesujis, life and death, there are longish entries on famous players - Chinese, Japanese and Korean - and on famous books. What the book reminds me of is the annuals I used to get at Christmas time as a kid. They were such an Aladdin's cave of delights, especially through the dark winter nights. I don't mean that the present book is for kids, though. It's suitable for even dan players. It may be the only go book you ever need! As it covers the basics so well, I even think it's a shame that so much money was spent, with the best of intentions, by Oriental organisations on things like freebies to the WAGC for a handful of people. If they had spent some of that money on having this book translated (not by me, I hasten to add!), far more westerners would have seen the benefit of the money and we would have a much better grounding.

Finally, I'll give just one example of the insights in the book, for a special reason. The reason is that there was a little discussion some time back when I mentioned having seen "sector lines" mentioned in Oriental books independently of Bruce Wilcox's version of the theme. When challenged by Bruce, I was able to find a Japanese source to prove my claim, but I was unable to remember the others. However, looking at this encyclopaedia again to count the diagrams, etc. I was delighted to re-discover another example, this time from China. But there is a subtle difference, I'd forgotten. At least I think, lazily without referring back to the stimulating Instant Go, that I'm right in saying that Bruce had in mind drawing sector (his term, or boundary) lines in the open centre from the tip of one position to the tip of another for the same side, the idea being that you have to be very wary of crossing that line as an invader. The Encyclopaedia, though, does not use the tip of the position but rather the tip of the thickness in the position. I'm inclined to see the value of the pro's experience in that small but useful point.

The book is 围棋实用全典 and the ISBN is 7-8051-732-2. My copy is date 1998, so it may not be in print.

Re: Research in Go - 2011

Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 11:21 am
by RobertJasiek
It sounds like an early medieval attempt to collect all knowledge of science known at that time in one book. Nowadays there is too much knowledge for one book. If one topic covers about 10% of the encyclopedia, then all go topics cannot fit in the same degree of detail in that book. So it is not as holistic as one would like it to be and not as detailed as research books on specific topics.

Thank you though for pointing out the book; it might be a nice xmas present!:) You emphasise that it was a practical book; does this mean that it does not contain lots of abstract, general knowledge? Is the book worth reading without understanding the text?

How, by which kind of value(s) does the book assess the value of thickness?

Sector lines: I have heard about half a dozen of people (incl. me) who have invented or presented the concept pretty much independently from others. The English phrase sector line is Wilcox's invention, I'd guess. I am not happy with it though because the term suggests something more general than what it means. I prefer to say something like "line of an outer moyo boundary / hull".

Re: Research in Go - 2011

Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 7:38 pm
by tundra
TMark wrote:Robert, I think that you have missed your vocation. You should have been a film critic. Of course, you wouldn't have to watch any of the films; just comment on what other people say about them.
I am guessing that you take issue with Robert's comments on Asian go literature, when he does not yet (I suppose) have a sufficient reading knowledge of Chinese, Korean, or Japanese to read the primary sources directly?

Fair enough, I suppose. And it would apply to many of us. But it still leaves the obvious question: if the "Practical Encyclopaedia of Go" is as good as John Fairbairn says it is (and really, I do trust his opinion), why not try to get permission to translate and publish it? It could be a grateful readership, given that not everyone has the time and talent for languages.

Re: Research in Go - 2011

Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 11:16 pm
by RobertJasiek
tundra wrote:I am guessing that you take issue with Robert's comments on Asian go literature, when he does not yet (I suppose) have a sufficient reading knowledge of Chinese, Korean, or Japanese to read the primary sources directly?


Rather I think he refers to my comments on comments on books I have not had in my hands. My comments sometimes point out apparent inconsistencies in others' comments and TMark seems to doubt that I could meaningfully detect such without have seen those books myself.

Re: Research in Go - 2011

Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 11:57 pm
by gogameguru
tundra wrote:
TMark wrote:Robert, I think that you have missed your vocation. You should have been a film critic. Of course, you wouldn't have to watch any of the films; just comment on what other people say about them.
I am guessing that you take issue with Robert's comments on Asian go literature, when he does not yet (I suppose) have a sufficient reading knowledge of Chinese, Korean, or Japanese to read the primary sources directly?

Fair enough, I suppose. And it would apply to many of us. But it still leaves the obvious question: if the "Practical Encyclopaedia of Go" is as good as John Fairbairn says it is (and really, I do trust his opinion), why not try to get permission to translate and publish it? It could be a grateful readership, given that not everyone has the time and talent for languages.


From John's description, it sounds like you'd need a team of fairly good Go players to translate it. I imagine John's not up to taking on the task by himself, because it would likely take years to do it justice.

Thanks for these details by the way John. It sounds like a fascinating book!

Regarding the idea of holistic Go knowledge... It's not in the same league, but the translation of Shuko's four tesuji dictionaries (translated by Steven Bretherik and published by Slate and Shell) is excellent in my opinion.

The value isn't in the tesuji themselves, which can be found in plenty of books, but Shuko's comments about each problem. The way he discusses different possible moves, ideas for resistance or trades, large scale ideas for attack and defense, when a particular move could be good or bad in the whole board context, how and when you could tenuki and so many other topics, is really educational. The funny thing is that often it seems like an off-hand remark on his part, but there is a lot of wisdom to be mined from Shuko's words (especially for Western Go players).

I feel that (while not being exhaustive) it's a holistic approach to tesuji that helps you connect strategy with tactics, and really rewards serious study.

Re: Research in Go - 2011

Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 1:49 am
by ez4u
There is a scanned PDF on the web. If plug the name into Google, you will see one of the links has PDF in the title. I can't see the black move numbers when I view the file but it does allow you to see what the book content looks like.

Re: Research in Go - 2011

Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 2:06 am
by John Fairbairn
From John's description, it sounds like you'd need a team of fairly good Go players to translate it. I imagine John's not up to taking on the task by himself, because it would likely take years to do it justice.


Not a question of time so much as money. Translation of this book would cost around US$100,000 at my normal commercial rates. Since go book sales would recover only about 1% of that, no publisher would touch it. It would have to be a sponsored effort. That is the sort of fee, pro rata, incidentally, that is being donated essentially free by people like John Power when they translate books like 21st Century Joseki. That is part of what makes the (admittedly occasional) snotty comments so galling.

Regarding the idea of holistic Go knowledge... It's not in the same league, but the translation of Shuko's four tesuji dictionaries (translated by Steven Bretherik and published by Slate and Shell) is excellent in my opinion.

The value isn't in the tesuji themselves, which can be found in plenty of books, but Shuko's comments about each problem. The way he discusses different possible moves, ideas for resistance or trades, large scale ideas for attack and defense, when a particular move could be good or bad in the whole board context, how and when you could tenuki and so many other topics, is really educational. The funny thing is that often it seems like an off-hand remark on his part, but there is a lot of wisdom to be mined from Shuko's words (especially for Western Go players).

I feel that (while not being exhaustive) it's a holistic approach to tesuji that helps you connect strategy with tactics, and really rewards serious study.


Whilst I can hardly disagree since I first brought the book to western attention (on r.g.g.), and raved about it so much that S&S decided to publish it, I didn't have the foresight then to see it as a holistic book. I was astonished that Steve Bretherick agreed to take on such a massively underpaid job - he's another the go world probably doesn't appreciate enough. However, my biggest astonishment came a few years later when I read here that there are people who don't like this book. Even with the sometimes jokey and sometimes serious splits here between, say, numbers people and non-numbers people and so being aware you can't please all the people all the time, I was still taken aback by those who dismissed the book. I felt it was one of those that arched over any differences, and part of the reason - as I'd put it now - is that it is holistic.

The more I've thought about holism the past few days, the more I'm convinced we have lacked it here, and to a large degree simply because it has been ignored. Saying joseki, joseki, joseki all the time is one example of why. Another part of the reason it's ignored may be the idiotic notion expressed elsewhere in the thread that holism about completeness. Obviously we all know we have a far from complete library in the west, but I still think there's enough here for parts to be put together to form some sort of synergy.

As to practical steps forward, putting together a good grouping of books that help each other rather than the usual lists of the ten best may be one, but I'm inclined to think that simply more attempts to talk holistically here on L19 could also be a powerful impetus for change.

Re: Research in Go - 2011

Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 2:09 am
by John Fairbairn
There is a scanned PDF on the web. If plug the name into Google, you will see one of the links has PDF in the title. I can't see the black move numbers when I view the file but it does allow you to see what the book content looks like.


Is this aiding piracy?

Re: Research in Go - 2011

Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 3:55 am
by RobertJasiek
John Fairbairn wrote:my biggest astonishment came a few years later when I read here that there are people who don't like this book. [...] numbers people and non-numbers people


I don't like Shuko's tesuji books. As a "number person", it may surprise you that one of the reasons is the number stone symbols in the text; it makes the text appearance hectic. Shuko's book has the advantage of identifying some (by far not all) types of tesujis and grouping them. If the books had only headings (to provide the structure of the presented tesuji types) and diagrams, I would like the books. Regardless of how well the translation may have been done, the text accompaying the diagrams does not read well because it hides interesting aspects among the obvious. It is like the Ishida: besides explaining josekis, it offers and buries a lot of details of fundemantal theory in the diagram comments. It should not be the reader's task to find easter eggs but they should be presented at prominent places.

the idiotic notion expressed elsewhere in the thread that holism about completeness.


Such discussion arises as a consequence of statements like "covers every aspect of go in great detail" and "It may be the only go book you ever need!".

I still think there's enough here for parts to be put together to form some sort of synergy.


For sure.

Re: Research in Go - 2011

Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 4:13 am
by RobertJasiek
It looks like the encyclopedia is available but purchasing from webpages with only Japanese / Chinese characters might be difficult:

http://bookd.bi3jia.com/bookcmp_421481.html
http://book.kongfz.com/6525/97754558/
http://www.google.de/search?sclient=psy ... btnG=Suche

I can't believe the prices though: 24 Yuan = 3 EUR or 52 Yen = 0.5 EUR? Probably I don't understand what is written... Plus shipping, of course.