Life In 19x19

Stable wrote:Thanks Mumps, good points. I completely missed that I didn't need to defend at 72. What's the advantage of playing c9 though? It doesn't seem to do much to get eyes and doesn't threaten the cut at the b group below either.

It ensures that your stones have potential eyes along the edge, separating the two B groups, and make a subsequent play at B8 totally destabilising for the B group below. Hence it's a sente move against the lower group and actually attacking it, but from a distance.

Jon

mumps wrote:It ensures that your stones have potential eyes along the edge, separating the two B groups, and make a subsequent play at B8 totally destabilising for the B group below. Hence it's a sente move against the lower group and actually attacking it, but from a distance.

Jon

You advise c9 for and for ;both times I think you mean c8.

I disagree with Tetron on Black 13, it looks to me like the natural move for Black.

I disagree with Tetron on White 16. It might not be the best move, but there is no way to both take the corner and keep Black weak at the same time, it is a damn standard low approach, if you take the corner Black ends stable on the outside, even with more fancy moves as the footsweep.

However, I find it hilarious that people look for the rank first - not on the content of advice given. Often you don't need to be too strong to tell good from bad advice. His comment on White 72 is at least according to my reading correct, and of course upon seeing Black 73 White is hopeless. So even when you are not sure, how on earth can you defend?

In my opinion, White decided to go for influence regardless of what the opponent did, but to make influence work (= you are behind in territory by playing that way) you need to set up the game in a way you can make it work later on, that is building a framework that will generate a target (invasion) or having a target to attack from start. B27 provides the opportunity to create a target or to build a framework but then White chickens out and chooses to strengthen Black, neutralizing its only asset (influence) for a little territory, which is by far not enough after spending so many moves to gain it. Stick to your original plan and try to make it work.

I believe this is often the case if you are out of balance already. When replaying professional games with frameworks it always strikes me, that they just prefer to make it even bigger, playing moves and sequences they would never play if they had not this e.g. sanrensei on the other side of the board, because likely it is too late to go back, take territory and get into balance again. When you already have so much stones played for influence on board, W26 (a typical Takemiya-esque framework building move) or the starpoints on the sides, consistency and a plan to make those stones do some work is way more important than belated attempts to gain balance back, which tend to waste the only asset you have.

tapir wrote:However, I find it hilarious that people look for the rank first - not on the content of advice given.

It's because of the "fundamental weakness" bit. Saying move 72 is not necessary is specific factual advice. We can judge whether it's right or wrong based on the board, regardless of the speaker. Saying "you have a fundamental weakness" is setting yourself above someone else's go in order to judge it. I'm sure tetron is a nice guy or gal and didn't mean it that way, but that's the kind of comment it is--maybe appropriate for your teacher, not so much for a stranger your rank or below.

tetron wrote:You have a fundamental weakness in your fighting. It is not about individual moves but your general approach. Just because a group can't be killed doesn't mean that it is yet alive. You need to attack groups in ways that help your global position. Instead you keep playing unnecessary defensive moves.

This is actually somewhat true. There was a lot of not following through on ideas. Once he committed to a course of play, he needed to follow it through to its logical conclusion, and he often didn't, pulling back and protecting a number of times rather than taking the plunge.

you also play several moves extending a group, then immediately give up as soon as you are attacked. The classic example of this was you should play H3

He played correctly after he played H3. I might quibble with H3, but not with the subsequent moves. He had to isolate the center, he succeeded in doing so. H2 just unnecessarily gives black great attacks.

this is not even the right move if you were trying to defend the group , but more importantly you can fight for the middle of the board.

72 wasn't the issue in this fight, it was trying to shut white in, while leaving an elephant-jump gap behind. Or perhaps where white can play F8 to cut black off. If he wanted to kill his chances were here.

was a very poor move which fails to show the real problem in your sequence from w12 onwards. You are again defending a vulnerable group but you allow black to attack your group and become stronger and build territory at the same time.

It's not poor at all, where would you play instead? The problem was not from w12 onwards, but not invading the 3 space pincer immediately and thus leaving no aji here.

I disagree with Bill Spight on this, I don't think W12 feels small at all. I think it feels solid with points, and black's framework on the lower right is not solid territory yet, that solidity can be useful later.

you should take the corner instead leave black with a weak group and keep it disconected. You haven't got any territory yet and you are too keen to play on the fourth row in this position.

You can't leave black weak there... there's no way to do it. But I agree that w16 is just plain hideous. It's fine to play this move, IF you're not going to become cramped by a double kakari... but right now, W is inviting B to settle, in return for a double wing from a star point. Black can even just tenuki and invade the bottom left corner at 3x3 in sente.

In fact, C14 demonstrates just what a good move K17 is. White's moves to extend from his stone in the upper right can invariably be met with a very strong slide into the corner... white has no room for growth there.

Black is overplaying, ignoring your sente moves. In these circumstances you should treat your stones as alive until black can bprove them otherwise. However, you could have avoided much of this by playing a different flavour of opening and playing R4.

Tapir suggests we should look at the content of the advice, rather than the rank giving it. However, many of your suggestions are stylistic ones, and if I'm being told general style methodologies for playing, I'd like to know that the person suggesting them was around my level.

Further, you give an argument as to why you are not actually 5k. You were not required to WRITE "5k" for your rank information, that was volunteered. That being the case, why should you be surprised if people treat your advice as though coming from a 5k?

You don't have to write anything for the rank if you don't think you have an accurate one right now. But I have a feeling here that, while you are maybe not 5k, you are not strong enough to be certain about your criticism of a 1d-2d KGS game. That is not to say your criticism is strictly wrong, but an attitude of humility would go far.

hyperpape wrote:

tapir wrote:However, I find it hilarious that people look for the rank first - not on the content of advice given.

It's because of the "fundamental weakness" bit. Saying move 72 is not necessary is specific factual advice. We can judge whether it's right or wrong based on the board, regardless of the speaker. Saying "you have a fundamental weakness" is setting yourself above someone else's go in order to judge it. I'm sure tetron is a nice guy or gal and didn't mean it that way, but that's the kind of comment it is--maybe appropriate for your teacher, not so much for a stranger your rank or below.

I have taken lessons from professionals and nobody ever told me anything like "you have a fundamental weakness in xyz". This is exactly the kind of comment a good teacher will never make, regardless of his rank. Even if a 7 dan says that, it doesn't become a good advice. Rather you hear things like "this is too soft" or "here the game really starts" (when the fight breaks out and your weakness starts to show), "you can do this better", "what was your plan here" or "you should stand in the corner" until you finally get it...

tapir wrote:I have taken lessons from professionals and nobody ever told me anything like "you have a fundamental weakness in xyz". This is exactly the kind of comment a good teacher will never make, regardless of his rank. Even if a 7 dan says that, it doesn't become a good advice. Rather you hear things like "this is too soft" or "here the game really starts" (when the fight breaks out and your weakness starts to show), "you can do this better", "what was your plan here" or "you should stand in the corner" until you finally get it...

I thought about hedging even further that a teacher might not make a comment because it's too deflating, or unhelpful, but I just left it with "maybe". But I think that almost adds to what I was saying.

tetron wrote:You have a fundamental weakness in your fighting. It is not about individual moves but your general approach. Just because a group can't be killed doesn't mean that it is yet alive. You need to attack groups in ways that help your global position. Instead you keep playing unnecessary defensive moves.

I do not think that you need to label comments with rank. "You have a fundamental weakness" pretty well screams kyu player. That said, it is worth thinking about whether one is making unnecessary defensive moves. Weaker players can often see flaws that we are blind to.

The classic example of this was you should play H3

H3 is a typo for H2, OC. I am sure that Stable is quite aware of the cluelessness of that comment. White's plan was to give up territory for the attack. H2 would have been inconsistent with that plan. OC, whether that was a good plan or not is another question.

shapenaji wrote:I disagree with Bill Spight on this, I don't think W12 feels small at all.

I think you know what I meant, but just to be clear: I do not object to per se. I think that the White formation is too small for this early in the opening. IMO, the problem lies with or .

I didn't expect to cause so much controvery! I think all the arguments have been made, but I will say that I'm never offended by critical comments when I have posted a game asking for them. It's good to critically analyse the comments received as well, no matter who they come from.

With the H2 thing I did look at and reject the move in the game, but of course as has been pointed out the question is less interesting, because better play would not have allowed the situation to arise. Ironically I usually am told that fighting is my strong point, as this game shows it's certainly not joseki knowledge or direction of play!

I always find it very humbling having a game reviewed and finding that my weaknesses are deeper than they first appear. Tapir's comment about chickening out particularly struck home. Thanks!

Bill Spight wrote:

shapenaji wrote:I disagree with Bill Spight on this, I don't think W12 feels small at all.

I think you know what I meant, but just to be clear: I do not object to per se. I think that the White formation is too small for this early in the opening. IMO, the problem lies with or .

The 3-space extension after splitting the side though is quite common, that black chose NOT to invade it immediately and leave aji was what seemed unusual to me. Since he didn't white's slide and protect is enormous. W can't afford to leave that position after black makes the high extension from his 4x4.

white doesn't even lose sente, because black needs to attend to his top group. I think that particular result was better for white.

However, once white had that strength, it seems odd to go to the point on the lower side, conventional wisdom would say that it's big to stop a double wing, but given that white has a strong position on the right, I don't think the double-wing is as powerful, and I think making the knights-move enclosure in the upper right is most urgent.

shapenaji wrote:

Bill Spight wrote:

shapenaji wrote:I disagree with Bill Spight on this, I don't think W12 feels small at all.

I think you know what I meant, but just to be clear: I do not object to per se. I think that the White formation is too small for this early in the opening. IMO, the problem lies with or .

The 3-space extension after splitting the side though is quite common, that black chose NOT to invade it immediately and leave aji was what seemed unusual to me. Since he didn't white's slide and protect is enormous. W can't afford to leave that position after black makes the high extension from his 4x4.

Good. We clearly disagree here. I think that White can afford to approach the top right corner (after the one space jump) from the top side, leaving the possibility of the Black invasion on the right side, as long as the corner is still open. If Black protects the corner, then White can protect the right side, and be satisfied with having gotten the extension on the top side.

white doesn't even lose sente, because black needs to attend to his top group. I think that particular result was better for white.

We disagree that this was better for White. This early in the game I would have tenukied or made a 2 space extension for .

However, once white had that strength, it seems odd to go to the point on the lower side, conventional wisdom would say that it's big to stop a double wing, but given that white has a strong position on the right, I don't think the double-wing is as powerful, and I think making the knights-move enclosure in the upper right is most urgent.

Here we agree about preventing the double wing. I think that a sanrensei on the left side suggests itself. (I assume you mean the upper left, not the upper right, but I am not sure which enclosure you mean.)

Bill Spight wrote:
Good. We clearly disagree here. I think that White can afford to approach the top right corner (after the one space jump) from the top side, leaving the possibility of the Black invasion on the right side, as long as the corner is still open. If Black protects the corner, then White can protect the right side, and be satisfied with having gotten the extension on the top side.

The thing is, if white doesn't take the slide, black gets to either make the diagonal attachment to white's stone, or the descent to 4x2. Either way, White must respond and becomes heavy, black already has a good stone in place on the other side, and then black can get an attack going, building up his framework in the lower right.

I think that's where we disagree, I don't think w has miai here. black can make white heavy. After the sequence in the game, black has no way to attack to build up his bottom right.

Here we agree about preventing the double wing. I think that a sanrensei on the left side suggests itself. (I assume you mean the upper left, not the upper right, but I am not sure which enclosure you mean.)

Yes, I meant upper left. san-ren-sei is definitely big, the problem is, when black approaches the upper-left, the power of san-ren-sei (the pincer), is not actually threatened, because black already has a stone on the upper side. So, instead, once you have the solid position on the right, I would extend from the star point in the upper left, threatening to invade black's long extension from his upper right, black must jump into the center, and then I can tend to either the left or the bottom, I suspect the bottom would then be more valuable.

I hate to spoil a good disputation, but I looked at Gobase and...

wow, I got the elephants start fighting! What about a Malko: Bill against Shape!