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Using Walls

https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=493

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Re: Using Walls

Posted: Tue May 11, 2010 7:08 am
by Bill Spight
Dusk Eagle wrote:'e' is trying to make territory out of thickness, which is very bad. However, playing 'a' or 'b' is more like aiming to create a moyo with your thickness, which is fine.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Proper use of walls
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Here's another example. White has played :w1: . What is the proper way to utilize black's influence - 'a' or 'b'?


Comment: :w1: is too close to Black's thickness.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Proper wedge
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


:w1: here, one space further away from the wall, is better. Now if :b2:, :w3: leaves room for a play at "a", if White needs it. :)

Re: Using Walls

Posted: Tue May 11, 2010 7:30 am
by Bill Spight
ChradH wrote:I must admit I find this a bit confusing, too:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Blocking the right direction
$$ ------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . a 9 0 . . . . . .
$$ | . . 1 2 . b . . . # .
$$ | . . 3 X . . . . . . .
$$ | . 5 4 . . . . . . . .
$$ | . 7 6 . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 8 . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . @ . . . . . , .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

It is considered right for black to block like this.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Wall example - approach
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . e . . . a . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . b . @ . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . c d . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

But it's wrong for black to play 'e'.

In both cases, black ends up with the same wall plus extension, but once it's called good, once bad.


In Japanese, adjectives always have comparative force. In the first case, the translation might have been good when better would have been better. ;) (The same is true of many English adjectives, but to a lesser extent than Japanese. And in English, good is higher praise than better. :) )


And in the good case, black does make territory from thickness, doesn't he?


No, the thickness and the territory arise at the same time. :)

Re: Using Walls

Posted: Tue May 11, 2010 7:46 am
by Bill Spight
Violence wrote:I've always hated that expression, "Don't make territory with thickness," because it seemed so vague to me every time I read it. I mean, if you have a huge amount of thickness, and your opponent also has thickness around it, making territory with the thickness might not be a bad plan.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Bad plan?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . 1 . O . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . O . , . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . X O . X . O . . O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X O O . . . . . O X X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Almost every go proverb has exceptions. :) Given that, I think that the proverb not to make territory from thickness is a very good one. Why? Because doing so is an extremely common fault. And that proverb served me well in my early go career, because I knew to extend far enough from thickness so that my opponents would invade and I could attack. :)

I think it always depends on judgment. You can make territory with thickness, but making territory which is too small often ruins the potential of the thickness, which is something you don't want to limit. Making a lot of territory with thickness, however, is something I'm sure pros have no objection to, as long as the territory is just large enough.


I think that we can also say that this proverb mainly applies to the opening. Later in the game making territory from thickness is often a good idea. :)

Re: Using Walls

Posted: Tue May 11, 2010 10:24 am
by ross
Bill Spight wrote:Almost every go proverb has exceptions. :) Given that, I think that the proverb not to make territory from thickness is a very good one. Why? Because doing so is an extremely common fault. And that proverb served me well in my early go career, because I knew to extend far enough from thickness so that my opponents would invade and I could attack. :)

I was just about to say, I always think of the proverb (now) as, "Don't make territory from thickness. Make territory by attacking the inevitable invasion of the influence you build from that thickness."

Do you think that's a reasonable addendum? It seems to match what people are saying here (and doesn't contradict the proverb, it just ... clarifies it a bit).

Re: Using Walls

Posted: Tue May 18, 2010 12:34 am
by Jonas
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Bad plan?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . a 1 . O . B O O X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . O . , . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . X O . X . O . . O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X O O . . . . . O X X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think you can explain why this 1 is a good move if you mention that it serves multiple purposes:
1) It builds blacks potential territory
2) it denies whites "want-to-have" extension at 'a'
3) in combination with the marked stone white is under a very dangerous attack if he ommit an answer

I of this more as an attacking move rather then an "making territory" move.
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