Life In 19x19

Assuming you can go to Korea and play in open tournaments with pros (and win) I don't think there is an age limit with the system Korea has right now. http://gogameguru.com/cho-insun-amateur ... go-player/

I think Japan and China have an age limit, though I'm not sure what they set the limits at. It seems to be 25 to become an insei in Japan (for westerners) according to the Nihon Ki-in's english website. http://www.nihonkiin.or.jp/english/insei.htm I don't know what the limit for actually becoming a pro is; there's probably more information on the Japanese website but my Japanese isn't good enough to find it.

In Japan you can try to become pro until you are 23 years old through the Nihon Kiin.

http://www.nihonkiin.or.jp/profile/saiyou/kishi.html

Kansai lets you try until 26 under normal circumstances or 30 for women or if you have won specific amateur tournaments.

http://www.kansaikiin.jp/kenshukishi/index.html

No specific mention is made for foreigners.

You want to become pro, but at the same time have it be a 'second priority' goal to your education? If you're genuinely serious about becoming a pro, you need to go all the way. Put aside your education, fly over to Asia, study in a professional Go academy full time, and dedicate your life to the game. I've met children much younger than you who study over 10 hours a day, are already high dan, trying to become pro. To them, this is not 'second priority'.

http://beginningpath.blogspot.com/p/study-abroad.html <- adoreme's blog has a list of Go schools if you're intrested. I've heard of a few that aren't on the list but I don't remember the names of them or have contact information for them.

You know, on second thought, I think I neglected the best possible advice: stay away from Life in 19x19! If you come back here every hour or so to read our replies and acknowledge them, you'll never make it.

Araban is right, you're already behind when it comes to pro track. Making 2d in a year, or 6d in a couple of years is perfectly possible, rewarding, and shouldn't take away from your educational goals.

If you truly want it, then you have to push like a madman.

You need someone stronger than you to beat you constantly in challenging games (at least 1 stone off your proper handicap), you need to force yourself to break through every obstacle.

Unfortunately, as it stands, this is the only way for a westerner to become pro. We just get to the game too late to really have time to test ourselves adequately to prevent the need for jumping off the cliff.

Araban wrote:If you're genuinely serious about becoming a pro, you need to go all the way. Put aside your education, fly over to Asia, study in a professional Go academy full time, and dedicate your life to the game.

True, but read that in the same way you read "if you want to count the blades of grass in your front lawn, you better work really hard at it." The correct response is that you shouldn't want to count the blades of grass in your front lawn. And right now, you can definitely dream of being a pro, but it's too soon to really make a commitment.

If I was that much on Life19x19, it's because I was at school and I had already made 2 straight hours of go problems (especially tesujis)

hyperpape wrote:

Araban wrote:If you're genuinely serious about becoming a pro, you need to go all the way. Put aside your education, fly over to Asia, study in a professional Go academy full time, and dedicate your life to the game.

True, but read that in the same way you read "if you want to count the blades of grass in your front lawn, you better work really hard at it." The correct response is that you shouldn't want to count the blades of grass in your front lawn. And right now, you can definitely dream of being a pro, but it's too soon to really make a commitment.

When would the time be right to start really get into it? When I'm done with my objective?

It's hard to say when you're ready. It would depend on your personality--some people can thrive while plunging headfirst into things, others can't (even if they like doing it).

I shouldn't be too down on Araban's comment. When you're 18 or 19 and you don't love school and aren't thriving there, there are worse things than taking some time to pursue other interests.

Leyleth wrote:If I was that much on Life19x19, it's because I was at school and I had already made 2 straight hours of go problems (especially tesujis)

Why only two straight hours?

Leyleth wrote: When would the time be right to start really get into it? When I'm done with my objective?

I would think about something like the following:

• Ramp up your study/play/professional tutoring to the highest level consistent with it being priority #2 between now and Valentine's Day. If you've reached shodan (or some other ambitious goal) by then, proceed to the next step.
• Throughout your spring semester, devote excessive amounts of time to studying go. It is now priority #1 1/2. Begin to plan to a leave of absence, and make an arrangement to study go abroad. If force-feeding yourself problems/games/whatever during this time makes you lose faith in your goal, abort mission.
• Summer: get on the plane, don't look back.

This would be the basic form of a project like this: deadlines, specific levels of commitment, automatic escalation if the deadlines pass successfully.

(Note: please read the positive note at the end.)

There is no road paved for you. This is both good and bad. Good, because if there was an established path (as there is in Japan, Korea, China, etc.), then you would have almost certainly missed it by now. Bad, because there won't be someone holding your hand and telling you exactly what steps you must take.

To give you some context, check out Alexandre Dinerchtein's story--a Russian, and one of the handful of non-Asian pros.

You also have to consider what will be waiting for you, if you accomplish this astounding feat. I learned how to play go last year, and I'm 30. Even if I didn't have an established career that I like (and I do), the thought of doing this professionally would never have crossed my mind. At 30 years old, not only am I too old to become a pro, if I were a professional (and had studied since I was 6 years old with prodigious talent), I would be passed my prime. So consider what exactly would be waiting for you on the other side.

I know several law school classmates who had planned their entire lives to be lawyers, got accepted to one of the top schools in the country, and ended up hating it.

All that said, let's end on a positive note: While you are old in terms of becoming pro, you're still only 18. This is the time in your life to take risks and experience the world. If you go to Korea and study go for 6 months or a year, and you decide it isn't for you, I would still envy you. You'll probably have learned some Korean, learned about a new culture, and tried your best at something you loved. You have to decide for yourself of course, but it sounds like a win--even if you lose.

For what my opinion is worth, I think you should listen to honest and constructive criticism of your play from other players, especially the stronger ones, and ignore people's predictions or opinions about what you can or cannot achieve. After all, while it's possible to point out a shape mistake or misplayed semeai, it's impossible to know what talents and perseverance another may harbour.

You might be able to make pro, or perhaps not. The only way to find out is to try your very best without giving up. At least, it should be possible for you - or anybody else for that matter - to become a very strong player. All you have to do is pay the price: long hours of effortful study.

In other words, whether you have talent or not, you will still have to pay the price. It is a high price - you'll be doing tsumego while others are having parties, and playing over the games of Shusaku while your friends are playing video games. In the end, though, you will have done your best, and that is more than the large majority of people can say.

One more last thing: even if you have never experienced a plateau yet, it is almost inevitable that you will. That's when the price will seem really high. If you're willing to keep on paying out the time and effort, even when it seems you're not getting value for it, then that's the mark of unstoppable power.

I'll watch your progress with interest.

judicata wrote:To give you some context, check out Alexandre Dinerchtein's story--a Russian, and one of the handful of non-Asian pros.

Quoting Wikipedia

"Becoming professional
In 2002 Alexandre made history by becoming the first Russian Go player to be promoted to professional status, alongside Svetlana Shikshina. Both players were promoted by special recommendation, a feat achieved by very few non-Asian players. He has since started a career in teaching Go to western players."

Notice that as a pro, Alexandre is not making his career from winning tournaments, but from teaching Go to western players. If you study hard and become a strong player that reaches the upper ranks of go servers, you can also make money teaching Go to western players, just not at the prices of top pros of course.

As a player who has always put trophies before money, I may not have the right temperament to focus on what steps are needed to be a pro at Go. What I thought I would give is some techniques that would allow you to become much stronger but some of them may be overkill for your ambition.

- fitness: all top level players will at some point work on their endurance fitness and you should get in to this habit now.

- live competitions: it is important to familiarise yourself with the live game as well as the online game. It is also much more likely that opponents in live games are trying their best. The difference in how you view the board in different light con be surprising but while you have young eyes this isn't important.

- blindfold practice: While not every top player does this, it is very useful to strngthen the image that you have of a game in your mind. This allows you to do study positions when on the bus, etc... even without an expensive mobile phone. But mainly it is about strengthening an important game skill of positional awareness.

- Do problems with a stop watch: - this is about you improving spotting the right move quicker. Improving your shape.

- Create your own analysis.: this can start with standard tests such as how a 3-3 point invasion is affected by surrounding stones. It can sometimes be useful to record the moves via a digital camera in case you find something very interesting but didn't rememer how it started.

- Read a Go book regularly: Perhaps 1 a week


I considered turning pro in bridge when I left Uni but decided it wasn't what I wanted to achieve and have been many years without playing the game. Later I played semi-pro briefly at online poker. However, most of my recent experience comes from games you will never have heard of. This doesn't require full time study nor dedication. And some of the age limits being mentioned don't really reflect playing strength. Most players peak mentally around the age of 27 or 28 but many people can develop later in life too.

While I am unfamiliar with the Go system, it is unlikely that there won't be a route of winning competitions. For example, if the WMSG (or miraculously MSO) takes off you will have fulltime amateurs playing directly against pros.

I see that many of you suggested classes with a pro. However, I don't know much on the subject... Since there's some good and some bad teachers, could you suggest me some? Note: One that doesn't cost too much too, if possible

I went at my first go club (I go at 2 go clubs) and I'm starting to do pretty well at 3 stones against the 2 dan player. Soon we're probably gonna fall to 2 stones.