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Re: (Open) Malkovich Game: mic vs. Chew Terr
Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 2:24 am
by topazg
I'm pretty sure you can extend quite happily:
$$Bcm7 Prisoners: B=0, W=0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm7 Prisoners: B=0, W=0This looks very joseki to me - I'd be happy enough with this as Black. However, as you say, if you push, you must cut:
$$Bcm7 Prisoners: B=0, W=0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm7 Prisoners: B=0, W=0This is a joseki when the marked Black stone is at "a", but like this, I have no idea if it loses the merit that makes it joseki normally. Knowing how some of the insidiously complicated squeezes turn out, I would suspect it does, but it takes off the urgency Black has to defend when his stone is at "a". Certainly, this will go off joseki and very complicated quite quickly I would have thought
Re: (Open) Malkovich Game: mic vs. Chew Terr
Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 2:37 am
by mic
topazg wrote: I'm pretty sure you can extend quite happily:
$$Bcm7 Prisoners: B=0, W=0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm7 Prisoners: B=0, W=0Problem is, that I had the cut at F17 open and eventually have to play B17. Some variations I read out when White plays there make it complicated (even though I did not read as deep as you).
Certainly, this will go off joseki and very complicated quite quickly I would have thought
It seems that all variations in this game get rather complicated ... probably is a general property of Go
- Mic
Re: (Open) Malkovich Game: mic vs. Chew Terr
Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 2:49 am
by topazg
$$Bcm7 Prisoners: B=0, W=0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm7 Prisoners: B=0, W=0As long as Black blocks at "a" and doesn't extend again, White loses this race. Because of this, Black can connect at "13" safely, and just has to remember there's some aji left. If this was bad for Black, the answer is to play "9" at "10" and jump ahead on the next move
Re: (Open) Malkovich Game: mic vs. Chew Terr
Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 6:53 am
by Bill Spight
topazg wrote: $$Bcm7 Prisoners: B=0, W=0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm7 Prisoners: B=0, W=0This is a joseki when the marked Black stone is at "a", but like this, I have no idea if it loses the merit that makes it joseki normally. Knowing how some of the insidiously complicated squeezes turn out, I would suspect it does, but it takes off the urgency Black has to defend when his stone is at "a". Certainly, this will go off joseki and very complicated quite quickly I would have thought
is a mistake.
Re: (Open) Malkovich Game: mic vs. Chew Terr
Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 6:55 am
by topazg
Yeah, I figured White wouldn't play that with Black's stone moved away, forcing himself through the gap like that isn't necessary now, but I was trying not to say until they'd played out
My White 10:
The only move I think:
$$Bcm7 Prisoners: B=0, W=0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm7 Prisoners: B=0, W=0
Re: (Open) Malkovich Game: mic vs. Chew Terr
Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 7:12 am
by zinger
topazg wrote: Yeah, I figured White wouldn't play that with Black's stone moved away, forcing himself through the gap like that isn't necessary now, but I was trying not to say until they'd played out
My White 10:
The only move I think:
$$Bcm7 Prisoners: B=0, W=0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm7 Prisoners: B=0, W=0
If white is really stubborn he could try:
$$Bcm7 Prisoners: B=0, W=0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm7 Prisoners: B=0, W=0Which may be an overplay but not a huge one.
Re: (Open) Malkovich Game: mic vs. Chew Terr
Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 7:21 am
by topazg
Yeah, that one could be fun too ... ok, only move was clearly an exaggeration on my part
Re: (Open) Malkovich Game: mic vs. Chew Terr
Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 7:27 am
by Bill Spight
topazg wrote: Yeah, I figured White wouldn't play that with Black's stone moved away, forcing himself through the gap like that isn't necessary now, but I was trying not to say until they'd played out
My White 10:
The only move I think:
$$Bcm7 Prisoners: B=0, W=0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm7 Prisoners: B=0, W=0
Yeah, I think so, too.
However, the atari is, I think, a common mistake at the level of the game. I made my comment because I was worried that your diagram would suggest it. I don't think that your equivocal comments really counteract the suggestion. A picture is worth 1000 words.
Edit: Not to worry.
From his comment, Chew Terr seems to be channeling Magicwand.
Re: (Open) Malkovich Game: mic vs. Chew Terr
Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 7:46 am
by Chew Terr
Wow, when I went to sleep, things got busy around here!
$$Wcm1 W8 Prisoners: B=0, W=0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm1 W8 Prisoners: B=0, W=0
Short of sacrificing my corner stone immediately, I pretty much need to play here for now. As for what's next, I'm not entirely decided on my best path. Obviously it depends on if black cuts. Assuming he does, here's what I'm looking at.
$$Wcm1 I need to read this some more to see how I think it'll turn out.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm1 I need to read this some more to see how I think it'll turn out.I'm pretty sure that 5 at B16 crashes and burns, from what I've read. Thank you, Bill, for reminding us to beware convenient ataris. I had originally thought to atari at F15 in my first diagram, but it accomplishes nothing.
$$Wcm1 This looks a little less complicated, but equally scary.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm1 This looks a little less complicated, but equally scary.While I'm thinking that both could turn out okay for me, I am leaning towards the second. The ladder threat against the cutting stone gives me the chance to nab fighting room, which appeals. I'll let ya'all know if I think of anything else.
Re: (Open) Malkovich Game: mic vs. Chew Terr
Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 11:11 am
by mic
$$Bcm1 Prisoners: B=0, W=0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: B=0, W=0Like already mentioned, I have to cut here under all circumstances.
Re: (Open) Malkovich Game: mic vs. Chew Terr
Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 11:22 am
by Chew Terr
$$Bcm1 Prisoners: B=0, W=0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: B=0, W=0As I said before, this is the option that I was considering that is simpler. The ladder threat lets me get a move in first in the corner, so it looks good.
Re: (Open) Malkovich Game: mic vs. Chew Terr
Posted: Tue May 18, 2010 2:28 am
by mic
Hello,
since I thought about a lot of variations and am quite lazy to write them all down I'll just embed the corresponding SGF here. If it seems to be too much of a hassle for our fellow readers, I'll write down my moves and variations in the conventional way.
Summarizing, I think that with
the position becomes more or less equal (even though I see a slightly better position for white).
$$Wcm1 Prisoners: B=0, W=0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: B=0, W=0(;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[0.00]
GN[Prisoners: B=0, W=0]DT[2010-05-18]PC[http://lifein19x19.com/]CR[fd]AW[ed][fd][ce][de][pp]AB[dc][dd][pd][ee][ch][dp]C[Diagram from
http://lifein19x19.com/ Prisoners: B=0, W=0]PL[B]
;CR[fd]
;B[fe]C[I prefer this move because in all variations I have enlisted here black can obtain a somehow equal position.
I wonder how much I suffer from "I only see the moves/variations that are good for me" - bias...
]
(;W[cc]
;B[cd]
(;W[bc]
;B[bd]
;W[db]
(;B[gd]
(;W[ec]
;B[eb])
(;W[fc]
;B[eb]
;W[fb]
;B[cb]
;W[ea]
;B[da]
;W[ec]
;B[fa])
(;W[be]
(;B[fc]
;W[ad]
;B[ec])
(;B[ad]
(;W[ec]
;B[eb])
(;W[ae]
;B[fc]))))
(;B[eb]
;W[ca]
(;B[gd])
(;B[bb]
;W[ac]
;B[gd])))
(;W[bd]
;B[bc]
(;W[cb]
;B[be]
;W[bf]
;B[ad]
;W[db]
;B[eb]
;W[ec]
;B[gd]
;W[fc]
;B[fb])
(;W[be]
;B[gd]
(;W[ec]
;B[db])
(;W[gc]
;B[fc])
(;W[db]
;B[ec]
;W[cb]
;B[eb]
;W[bb]
;B[eg]))))
(;W[ge]
;B[eg]LB[gd:A][ge:B]C[I am not so sure about this. B seems to help white to prevent some cuts at A. Overall, very complicated situation.]))
Re: (Open) Malkovich Game: mic vs. Chew Terr
Posted: Tue May 18, 2010 2:58 am
by topazg
mic wrote: $$Wcm1 Prisoners: B=0, W=0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: B=0, W=0A nice active way of dealing with the ladder while reducing White liberties. It leaves open the option of cutting directly if White blocks too, because the cutting stone will break the ladder towards the lower right (and the ladder towards the left already works for Black). That doesn't lead to any simple lines either, but it's worth remembering that it's a partial ladder breaker
Re: (Open) Malkovich Game: mic vs. Chew Terr
Posted: Tue May 18, 2010 3:02 am
by mic
Hi Graham,
topazg wrote: It leaves open the option of cutting directly if White blocks too, because the cutting stone will break the ladder towards the lower right (and the ladder towards the left already works for Black).
Could you elaborate on that? I'm pretty sure I am misunderstanding something here...
That doesn't lead to any simple lines either
I think that is the fate of all Malkovich games, open or not
Cheers,
Mic
Re: (Open) Malkovich Game: mic vs. Chew Terr
Posted: Tue May 18, 2010 3:49 am
by topazg
mic wrote: topazg wrote: It leaves open the option of cutting directly if White blocks too, because the cutting stone will break the ladder towards the lower right (and the ladder towards the left already works for Black).
Could you elaborate on that? I'm pretty sure I am misunderstanding something here...
Sure, cutting breaks the following ladder...
$$Wcm10 Prisoners: B=0, W=0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm10 Prisoners: B=0, W=0And this one is already good for Black:
$$Wcm10 Prisoners: B=0, W=0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm10 Prisoners: B=0, W=0
is a mistake. 
the position becomes more or less equal (even though I see a slightly better position for white).