Life In 19x19

speedchase wrote:this would lead me to believe that the KBA is also donating money, although how much I don't know. It is also possible that they are just referring to training and ability to compete in Korean tournaments.

Yes, if the KBA was doing monetary support, I would expect to see some numbers. As far as I can tell the total available is $30000 annually. It's a great start over nothing but I would prefer to see a "US Open of Go" with a $30000 purse than a pro system that only has that.

Maybe these 30000 can be used to train top US players to "make them" the first official US pros, and build from there.

Magicwand wrote:

jts wrote:

Magicwand wrote:i dont understand why US will agree to adopt pro system while it is about to fall apart in japan and korea.

How so?

Having professional means that they will be paid regardless of what they do. Currently korean kiwon will produce 8+ pros per year. When they reach high dan in next 20 years where are they going to get money to pay them all? Same thing is happening in japan. Soon china will have same problem.

But is it actually "falling apart"? In terms of producing highly skilled players and fascinating matches, the pro systems are do as well as, if not better than, ever. (Right?) And even when the finances sour the basic financial stability of the systems is strong enough that small reorganizations gain lots of breathing space.

vash3g wrote:

balmung wrote:finally, They announced it. Lisa told me all the details 2 months ago I have kept it secret since.

They talked about this at least twice during congress. I don't think it was exactly secret.

wasn't truly a secret, I did not know they talked about at congress, but I did know that if I posted it on here before it was announced it alot of people would be rude and skeptical.

jts wrote:But is it actually "falling apart"? In terms of producing highly skilled players and fascinating matches, the pro systems are do as well as, if not better than, ever. (Right?) And even when the finances sour the basic financial stability of the systems is strong enough that small reorganizations gain lots of breathing space.

in my opinion, it is falling apart just like social security tax i will never see.
if sponsors can not pay professionals then what other options do they have?
are they any different than amature players? answer is no!
for old timers who can not win any match still get payed till they die.
that alone need to be reformed in order for pro system to survive.
but people who make those decisions are old timers who doesnt want to give up their money.
therefore i see no other way but fall apart.

Magicwand wrote:

jts wrote:But is it actually "falling apart"? In terms of producing highly skilled players and fascinating matches, the pro systems are do as well as, if not better than, ever. (Right?) And even when the finances sour the basic financial stability of the systems is strong enough that small reorganizations gain lots of breathing space.

in my opinion, it is falling apart just like social security tax i will never see.
if sponsors can not pay professionals then what other options do they have?
are they any different than amature players? answer is no!
for old timers who can not win any match still get payed till they die.
that alone need to be reformed in order for pro system to survive.
but people who make those decisions are old timers who doesnt want to give up their money.
therefore i see no other way but fall apart.

You want your social security but you don't think professional go players should have it?

Magicwand wrote:

jts wrote:But is it actually "falling apart"? In terms of producing highly skilled players and fascinating matches, the pro systems are do as well as, if not better than, ever. (Right?) And even when the finances sour the basic financial stability of the systems is strong enough that small reorganizations gain lots of breathing space.

in my opinion, it is falling apart just like social security tax i will never see.
if sponsors can not pay professionals then what other options do they have?
are they any different than amature players? answer is no!
for old timers who can not win any match still get payed till they die.
that alone need to be reformed in order for pro system to survive.
but people who make those decisions are old timers who doesnt want to give up their money.
therefore i see no other way but fall apart.

It's really not that different from social security, is it? There's some extra pain to be spread around, and factions which are trying to force the least popular solutions on everyone else may try to paralyze the decision-making process, but at the end of the day the reformed system will look barely different from the current system.

Ending the Oteai was, at the time, considered a shocking step, wasn't it? But I don't get the sense that Japanese Go has disintegrated.

daal wrote:You want your social security but you don't think professional go players should have it?

i do pay my tax but i dont think we will have any money left when i become 65 (or whatever age at that time).
same with professionals they wont have any money to pay them when they become old timers.
system looks good in the beginning but will fall apart like pyrmid. that is what i predict.

Actually, even pros in other countries need to supplement their income by teaching. If there is a large enough pool of people wanting to learn, then that is quite feasible here as well. When the KBA began licensing pros, it was little more than a piece of paper, and there was no way to make a living from it. Look at them now though, it is a huge industry, like a regular sport almost. The other sense that one can be a "professional" is in terms of licensing. Think of lawyers who are licensed to practice. Many people pass the bar, or get an M.D., and then end up not being lawyers or doctors, they teach, or do research, or whatever. In any case they are acknowledged as having achieved a certain level. It would be the same with pros here, and they would be able to charge more for lessons by being certified.

The notion that the professional system will fail because they can't figure out how to deal with social security benefits seems far-fetched. The professionals may indeed get less money at some point, but that certainly doesn't spell the demise of the system.

gowan wrote:For a long time the strongest amateur players in the USA were Korean ex-yeongusaeng who failed to qualify as pros. I hope this system will be more than just a second chance for those unsuccessful pro students.

May I ask when this was the case? I know you probably remember that period, but it does seem to have changed. There are very good ex-yeongusaeng who have played in the US or continue to play, but the best amateur players active these days don't seem to fit the mold.

hyperpape wrote:

gowan wrote:For a long time the strongest amateur players in the USA were Korean ex-yeongusaeng who failed to qualify as pros. I hope this system will be more than just a second chance for those unsuccessful pro students.

May I ask when this was the case? I know you probably remember that period, but it does seem to have changed. There are very good ex-yeongusaeng who have played in the US or continue to play, but the best amateur players active these days don't seem to fit the mold.

I don't know how long this lasted but it was certainly true in the late 1970's, early '80s. More recently there was a young ex-yeongusaeng Korean player who, while not exactly dominating the US tournament scene did win the Cotsen tournament and some other big ones. I suppose this new system will have some sort of citizenship/permanent resident requirement. And what about the Korean amateur players who tend to win the European Open, prompting some moves to "keep our prize money for the Europeans"?

New thread time maybe? I would suggest calling it "Professional systems falling apart?".

Phelan wrote:New thread time maybe? I would suggest calling it "Professional systems falling apart?".

Life and death, fire and ice, 陰 and 陽, coming together and falling apart - being and non-being support each other! Watch the turmoil of beings and contemplate their return.

The money from Tygem is specifically for a certification tournament. KBA's financial support is, at the moment, limited to hosting students. Final details of course are not set in stone yet. Just thought I should say that... The intention is to find more sponsors for additional tournaments.

daniel_the_smith wrote:The money from Tygem is specifically for a certification tournament.

How does that work? Pay per game played online and use the full purse up? If so, that's a pretty big purse for the certification games.