Life In 19x19

xed_over wrote:Its b.

And a.

xed_over wrote:

RobertJasiek wrote:

gowan wrote:In the USA, for example, even though there is an effective AGA rating system (but no official ranks) there are differences in the strengths of players of similar ratings between the West and East coasts.

This is an example that a) the rating system is flawed or b) there are too few games between the West and East coasts. If there were one world rating system, then the same problem would exist.

Its b.

I'm a player who is one of the very few points of connection. I've jumped back and forth from east coast to west coast, but I don't think the difference is much more than half a stone.

I usually have a split record in east coast tournaments as 6d, (3-2 or 2-3) while on the west coast (at least since I've gotten back) I've scored 4-1 in my last two tournaments.

That being said, before I left the west coast the first time, I was going 3-2/2-3 in tournaments, and arrived on the east coast and was scoring the exact same records, so it's sometimes hard to say.

Re: Japanese ranks, the "real" ranks, those 6d and 7d that didn't "self-promote", seem about the same as AGA, maybe 1 stone off. And really, it's just a sign that we should be asking for people's ranks in a system that does not involve the selling of certificates.


Isn't it also true that the certificates are not received from tournament play? But rather from a game with a pro?

I heard somewhere that that was the case, if so, that may be the issue.

shapenaji wrote:Isn't it also true that the certificates are not received from tournament play? But rather from a game with a pro?

I heard somewhere that that was the case, if so, that may be the issue.

I doubt this is the case. Like I mentioned, I played in a tourney at Kansai-kiin probably about 8 years ago. the deal was that if you beat 4/5 players at the level you signed up for, you got the certificate for free. If you beat 3/5 you had to pay for it. If you had 2 or less wins, you couldn't get it.

I know becoming an insei requires sponsorship by a Japanese pro, but I never heard of such a requirement to get a rank certificate from Kansai-kiin or Nihon-kiin. If you want a 6d Nihon-kiin certificate, you just need to sign up for the ranking tournament at 6d and win at least 3 games, afaik.

This page at the Nihon Ki'in website sets out the five ways to obtain an amateur dan (1-8) or kyu (25-1) certificate:
(Roughly)
1. Through a Pro's recommendation
2. Be a branch member who receives the recommendation of the Branch manager
3. Through achieving specified results in a Nihon Ki'in sponsored or supported tournaments.
4. Through achieving specified results in the Nihon Ki'in's published exercise sets.
5. Through achieving specified results in the Nihon Ki'in's correspondence course.

So there are a great variety of different methods, which undoubtedly produce a variety of results. The same page shows the prices for the different levels. Most of the methods only apply up to 6d. For example the normal rating tournaments (the last one in Tokyo was at the beginning of December) is only good up to 6d. The on-line study exercises (the top item on the page) are also only up to 6d.

But not that many people actually have a certificate. Most players just go by their ranking at their local club, which can vary considerably as well. In Japan, the claim to a high dan does convey certain bragging rights but it comes down to two cases: people who don't play go who are impressed but don't really know anything about it, and people who do play go who then will check your strength (in their club) over the board (after all that's why they asked how strong you were).

The fun part in Japan is that only the official Nihon Ki'in ranks count if you play in casual tournaments - and pretty much everyone else sandbags! The friendly tournaments usually have a top group where everything is even games so it does not matter. But below that are different levels played with handicaps, where things can get 'exciting'.

I have asked a couple of pros why the Nihon Ki'in does not institute a country-wide organization to straighten things out. The reason that individual pros are not interested is that most of them make money from the issuing of certificates to their students (method 1 above). They would be dead against the Ki'in starting to base the certificates on, for example, a stable rating on Yugen no Ma (and cutting them out of the picture).

ez4u wrote:The reason that individual pros are not interested is that most of them make money from the issuing of certificates to their students.
They would be dead against the Ki'in starting to base the certificates on, for example, a stable rating on Yugen no Ma (and cutting them out of the picture).

Exactly. It's about money. (Same reasons for rank inflation in some martial arts.)
As soon as the "teacher" starts to look at the "student" more as a wallet
than as a learner they're supposed to help improve, it's all downhill.

As soon as money (or some kind of profit/favor) is involved, rank inflation is inevitable.

EdLee wrote:

ez4u wrote:The reason that individual pros are not interested is that most of them make money from the issuing of certificates to their students.
They would be dead against the Ki'in starting to base the certificates on, for example, a stable rating on Yugen no Ma (and cutting them out of the picture).

Exactly. It's about money. (Same reasons for rank inflation in some martial arts.)
As soon as the "teacher" starts to look at the "student" more as a wallet
than as a learner they're supposed to help improve, it's all downhill.

As soon as money (or some kind of profit/favor) is involved, rank inflation is inevitable.

I don't really see the point. I rather pay for teaching that helps me to improve than for someone selling me a document which doesn't help me to beat this particular guy in the go club. Or is it that regular payment as a kind of endorsement / sponsorship is still somewhat odious so paying for a rank certificate is a more polite / acceptable to the same end for both? (I don't believe the notion that the buyers are fooled in the process. If they play at all they can very well measure their progress themselves.)

tapir wrote:

EdLee wrote:

ez4u wrote:The reason that individual pros are not interested is that most of them make money from the issuing of certificates to their students.
They would be dead against the Ki'in starting to base the certificates on, for example, a stable rating on Yugen no Ma (and cutting them out of the picture).

Exactly. It's about money. (Same reasons for rank inflation in some martial arts.)
As soon as the "teacher" starts to look at the "student" more as a wallet
than as a learner they're supposed to help improve, it's all downhill.

As soon as money (or some kind of profit/favor) is involved, rank inflation is inevitable.

I don't really see the point. I rather pay for teaching that helps me to improve than for someone selling me a document which doesn't help me to beat this particular guy in the go club. Or is it that regular payment as a kind of endorsement / sponsorship is still somewhat odious so paying for a rank certificate is a more polite / acceptable to the same end for both? (I don't believe the notion that the buyers are fooled in the process. If they play at all they can very well measure their progress themselves.)

Of course they are not fooled. They want to show off.

I think most professionals make their money from teaching in Japan, not from certificates. However, the certificates are probably a way to keep students interested and paying for lessons. We used to use the same techniques when I was an English teacher for a company here in a corporate environment. If a student was stagnating, we would "fix" the test/assessment so they could progress to the next level only when the sales people told us it was necessary. When I say "fix" it, I just mean that we would ask a particular teacher to administer the test. This teacher was usually the most kind and lenient of the instructors, so that they would pass the person. After passing the test, the person would usually buy a big block of new lessons, so the sales staff were happy and we could all continue working at our jobs.

My guess is that the same technique is being used by Japanese go teachers. If a students is not progressing, they will issue certificates anyway when they seem to be ready to quit. This gives them new motivation to continue lessons and pay the instructor.