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153. Simba vs OtakuViking

https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=5308

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Re: 153. Simba vs OtakuViking

Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 7:27 am
by Simba
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Surprisingly tame for the taisha...

Re: 153. Simba vs OtakuViking

Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:28 am
by OtakuViking
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: 153. Simba vs OtakuViking

Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:07 am
by Simba
I'm not entirely sure what the standard format is for captured stones; I put a '1' next to B now at the bottom, let's go with that meaning I've captured 1 stone unless you have an objection :) .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 B-1 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: 153. Simba vs OtakuViking

Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:59 am
by OtakuViking
Sure that's fine with me.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 B-1 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 8 X O X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: 153. Simba vs OtakuViking

Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 11:20 am
by Ortho
@obs

Why does black need to capture with 17 when he can just ladder the w stone if it ever moves? If w does e6 and cuts f5 black can just respond. I tend to leave things like this and think it is maybe a weakness of mine. I would have played c15.

Re: 153. Simba vs OtakuViking

Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 11:29 am
by hyperpape
It's generally good to capture a stone that's caught in a ladder. There's two reasons. First, when it comes time to play in the upper right, black will be fighting with his hands behind his back if he doesn't capture. Every sequence he reads, he'll have to make sure that there is never any place where white could play an effective ladder breaker. That's hard, but it also means he'll have to back down from a lot of fights. Second, after he captures, Black is thicker. His stones have the start of eyeshape, and it will be fairly hard for White to attack them. If he doesn't capture, White could play a move that's a ladder breaker and use that to start to surround Black.

Re: 153. Simba vs OtakuViking

Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 12:36 pm
by Uberdude
hyperpape wrote:It's generally good to capture a stone that's caught in a ladder. There's two reasons. First, when it comes time to play in the upper right, black will be fighting with his hands behind his back if he doesn't capture. Every sequence he reads, he'll have to make sure that there is never any place where white could play an effective ladder breaker. That's hard, but it also means he'll have to back down from a lot of fights. Second, after he captures, Black is thicker. His stones have the start of eyeshape, and it will be fairly hard for White to attack them. If he doesn't capture, White could play a move that's a ladder breaker and use that to start to surround Black.


Those are 2 excellent reasons for capturing stones in ladders, but here there is a 3rd even better reason, it is sente otherwise black plays b4 to capture 2 white stones. A very common mistake (I've even see dan players make it) in this shape is for black to play b6 before d7, which white answers at b4 (and black feels really cool for bossing white around). Then capturing the ladder stone is still a good move for the 2 reasons above, but it is no longer sente.

Re: 153. Simba vs OtakuViking

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 6:31 pm
by Simba
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 B-1 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think this kind of area is definitely the biggest of the board. My thickness works well with this approach, and any kind of white pincer is going to be in a lot of trouble I expect (more so since I'm approaching from a bit of a distance).

Re: 153. Simba vs OtakuViking

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 3:46 am
by OtakuViking
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 B-1 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think white is in a bad position. I will have to do something to reduce black, but it'll be hard.

Re: 153. Simba vs OtakuViking

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:54 am
by yithril
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 B-1 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 X 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . a . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This is good influence overall, although it's not territory, but Black's stones on the left and right seem to be strategically in sync. I might have preferred that the approach were one space higher so it feels less overconcentrated (given how the left has a weakness) but it's still okay.

Re: 153. Simba vs OtakuViking

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 7:06 am
by Simba
Feel free to accept or reject the trigger :) .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 B-1 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 X 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I like how this thickness is working out, and given that I played dual 4-4s, I think my overall board position works quite well together.

Re: 153. Simba vs OtakuViking

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 9:20 am
by OtakuViking
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 B-1 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . 4 . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Black is doing well. I must be patient. If he secures a base for his stones, I will take sente to try something in another part of the board and come back to reduce later. If he jumps, trying to increase his framework, it is likely that I will come on in. Not sure where is best, but somewhere along the outer line in the middle seems interesting. reduce it from there. Retaining the weakness of black being undercut, I'm hoping black center territory won't turn out to be terribly big, otherwise white is in trouble. P.S, I suck at this type of game and I hate them aswell;)

Re: 153. Simba vs OtakuViking

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 4:41 pm
by Uberdude
@Simba & obs
Is there a reason you played the 2-space high approach at d14, which is a somewhat unusual approach, rather than the more normal d15?

Re: 153. Simba vs OtakuViking

Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 9:53 pm
by Simba
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 B-1 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . O . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I kind of instinctively feel this move is wrong for black, but I'm not entirely sure why (perhaps it's simply too slow), and would like to learn why, so I'll play it :) . First instinct was G14 for what it's worth, but this seems to be countered quite effectively by H10, after which I'm not only reduced but also have the open skirt at B6. Don't like it. Would be interested to hear where dan players would play here, as I often come into spots like this in my games and I'm often not entirely sure where the vital points to build the central areas are.


Uberdude wrote:@Simba & obs
Is there a reason you played the 2-space high approach at d14, which is a somewhat unusual approach, rather than the more normal d15?


Yeah - basically my thoughts were that it makes it a lot easier for a pincer stone to make something of itself if I approach from one space away. He has a choice of pincers from a one-space high approach all of which have an extra line to make some kind of sabaki invasion in. And if white pincered then lived in my area on the left in any kind of decent way, I could end up with very few points there. It seemed like it would be too easy for white to do that. I would get some thickness on the outside as compensation no doubt, but it's not immediately obvious how that would be used. White could one-space low pincer my two space high approach, but that is pretty cramped even if it did manage to get a two-space extension. I figure it's fine enough to take the cash I've been offered rather than gamble for more and lose it. I feel I'm a bit ahead here, so I'm happy enough.

Re: 153. Simba vs OtakuViking

Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 10:53 am
by Celebrir
I would have played a framwork building move as B now:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 B-1 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . O . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O X . . a . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I feel uneasy for W here... Espeacially because B might get 'a' later.
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