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Re: 154. illuck vs. Celebrir

Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 4:04 pm
by Loons
Speculatively. It's an interesting board.

diagram(26).sgf
(394 Bytes) Downloaded 820 times

Re: 154. illuck vs. Celebrir

Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 4:40 pm
by illluck
No worries, take your time. Hope you feel better soon, though :)

Re: 154. illuck vs. Celebrir

Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 5:55 am
by Celebrir
I'm already feeling better, so I guess my next move will come soon. At least at Thursday I think.

Here a short thought why I'm not following my old plan anymore:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc illuck vs. Celebrir - Diagram 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . B . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I don't think that :w3: is still that good with :bc:. A move at a seems much better for B now.

Re: 154. illuck vs. Celebrir

Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:44 am
by Celebrir
Sorry, I guess I was a a little bit to optimistic. Still to ill to think as much about a move as I want to do here.

Re: 154. illuck vs. Celebrir

Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:52 pm
by illluck
Seriously, don't worry about it. Hope you recover quickly :)

Re: 154. illuck vs. Celebrir

Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 3:42 am
by Celebrir
I'm not fully recovered but I guess I had enough time to think about it:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c illuck vs. Celebrir
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 0 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


First I thought about this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc illuck vs. Celebrir - Diagram 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


But this doesn't look good for me because I want the attack move at 'a' which looks a little bit weird here. Second idea:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc illuck vs. Celebrir - Diagram 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . a . . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 2 b . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This is a big point for my shimari and gives me the option of 'a' However, if B plays at :b2: or 'b' (which might be the move to be expected because he always played on the 3rd line) This looks like a good framework for B even if everything is on the 3rd line which is a little bit scary... This is why I decided that my opponent good point is my good point:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc illuck vs. Celebrir - Diagram 3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I played on the 4th line because I want to take advantage of his 3rd lineishness. My stones has to direction So I should be able to use him effectively.

I guess he plays either 'c' or something at the top.

Re: 154. illuck vs. Celebrir

Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 10:10 am
by illluck
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 illluck vs. Celebrir
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . 1 . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The top seems like the largest empty area, so I'll play it (sadly enough, this is about the extent of my opening knowledge :p).

I considered the below as well, but was not sure that I can end in sente to play on top.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 illluck vs. Celebrir
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: 154. illuck vs. Celebrir

Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 4:07 am
by Celebrir
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 illluck vs. Celebrir
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . X . 2 . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I guess I could play peaceful now:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 illluck vs. Celebrir - Diagram 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . 1 . X . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . 2 . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . W . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Doing something with :wc: doesn't seem urgent because this stone still has two more or less equal directions. Second option would be a more aggressive move:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 illluck vs. Celebrir
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . 2 . . X . 1 . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . 3 . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . a . . . B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Invading at 'a' doesn't seem so good because :bc: is one point closer than at the top.

I'll choose the aggressive way to make this game more entertaining for the observers ;) I know I'll regret this soon :roll:

Re: 154. illuck vs. Celebrir

Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:54 pm
by illluck
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 illluck vs. Celebrir
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . X . O . 3 . . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Let's try something interesting :) I think I can just play the 2-space extension, but then white extending to my upper right corner is hard to ignore.

Re: 154. illuck vs. Celebrir

Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 1:31 pm
by Loons
Seems good,

but may I just say this would have been an awesome game:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm13 Black sente, so maybe a bit ahead
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . 1 . . X . O . . 2 . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . 5 , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: 154. illuck vs. Celebrir

Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 1:53 pm
by Celebrir
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 illluck vs. Celebrir
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . 4 . X . O . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


That's intresting. I thought he would welcome the possibility to limit my shimari. Playing peacefully now seems bad:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 illluck vs. Celebrir - Diagram 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . 2 . . X . O . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 4 . . 3 . 1 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


At this way he gets the reduction and I got nearlly nothing. Let's punish him for not reinforcing his own stone:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 illluck vs. Celebrir - Diagram 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . 1 . X . O . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . c . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I could imagine him playing 'a' to 'c' bot none of them seems very bad for me. Let's see what happens.

Re: 154. illuck vs. Celebrir

Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 2:21 pm
by Numsgil
illluck wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 illluck vs. Celebrir
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . 1 . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The top seems like the largest empty area, so I'll play it (sadly enough, this is about the extent of my opening knowledge :p).


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 illluck vs. Celebrir
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . 1 . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
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$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This is better. You want 5 point extensions in the opening unless the other guy has more potential, and then you can play a 6 point extension. It's covered by Yulin Yang in one of his workshop lecture books.

The reason is that a 6 point extension can be invaded behind:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 illluck vs. Celebrir
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . 3 . . 1 . 2 . . 4 . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Not that you'd always play that way, but that potential exists with a 6 stone extension. That's why it makes sense to play 6 points if the other guy has more moyo. You're salting the whole side. In this case the other corner is facing along the left side so the top isn't bigger for him than you.

Re: 154. illuck vs. Celebrir

Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 2:24 pm
by illluck
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 illluck vs. Celebrir
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . O . X . O . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
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$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . X . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Hehe, the board actually looks pretty symmetrical right now. This jump leaves a connection, but I don't really care about it at the moment (will tenuki if white attaches underneath. The kosumi stops the connection, but I don't feel like I'm strong enough in area to play it.

Re: 154. illuck vs. Celebrir

Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 3:15 pm
by Loons
@Numsgil
I'm not under the impression K17 was misplaced.

All of these, to my knowledge are normal ways of developing a 3-3 stone. 'a' aims at cramping the enclosure with the nice move of 'x' (and the enclosure of 'c' or 'd'). It is true what you and Yilun Yang say about the length of extensions; that doesn't make them always wrong or right. Given white can play 'y', I think 'x' was a desirable spot. About our current fight, I cannot say.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . x . . a . . . b . . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . c d , . . . |
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$$ | . . y . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |[/go]

Re: 154. illuck vs. Celebrir

Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 3:58 am
by Celebrir
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 illluck vs. Celebrir
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . O . X . O . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . 6 . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . X . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I guess I have three options now:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 illluck vs. Celebrir - Diagram 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 8 4 1 2 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . 9 O 6 X 3 O . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . 7 5 . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X a . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . X . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I still have to protect the cut at 'a'. This would be some nice influence but B has sente now and a lot of places to reduce power of my wall. For example 'b' and 'c' seem to work.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 illluck vs. Celebrir - Diagram 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . b . a . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . O . X . O . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . 5 . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 4 . X . 1 . 2 . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
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$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


At this way both groups would be unsettled. Of course he can play 'a' just as easy as I can play 'b'. The sad is that he gets something nice at the right if he gets 'c'.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 illluck vs. Celebrir - Diagram 3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . O . X . O . B . . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . 7 . . . , . . 3 1 2 , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 6 . X . . . . 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
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$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


At this way 'a' is impossible for him. Besides my group is a little bit more solid which might allow 'b' later. Of course :bc:, :b2: and :b4: are more solid as well, but I think even at diagram 2 the chances to invade the right are small.

I'm not sure whether diagram 2 or 3 is better. However, making a solid group even more silid doesn't seem that bad and somehow I like the fact he isn't able to connect with 'a' in diagram 2. Therefore I choose diagram 3.