Life In 19x19

Nevertheless, and this is something that has risen before, it should be every player's right to resign their games. I've been at odds with the admins on this one myself, and I think it's unreasonable to expect players to keep a list of unfinished games in their game list until, and if, the opponent escapes enough games to have them automatically forfeit.

I have known someone who started a new account because he had enough games in his list that he was marked as an escaper even though he wasn't the one doing the escaping.

If my opponent is being incredibly rude during a game, I may well resign just because I don't want to be playing him. Censoring isn't enough, I don't actually want to be playing with someone who's being incredibly unpleasant. That's also against TOS, but I'd do it in real life too.

Philip Traum wrote:

topazg wrote:If my opponent is being incredibly rude during a game, I may well resign just because I don't want to be playing him.
Censoring isn't enough, I don't actually want to be playing with someone who's being incredibly unpleasant.
That's also against TOS, but I'd do it in real life too.

According to the KGS way you should escape, not resign, in these cases. TMTOWTDI.

Don't you see the irony in that?

lol

Well, at least now I know that I need to think of a plausible reason for ending the game if ever an Admin were to ask me why I resigned an escaped game...

topazg wrote:

Philip Traum wrote:

topazg wrote:If my opponent is being incredibly rude during a game, I may well resign just because I don't want to be playing him.
Censoring isn't enough, I don't actually want to be playing with someone who's being incredibly unpleasant.
That's also against TOS, but I'd do it in real life too.

According to the KGS way you should escape, not resign, in these cases. TMTOWTDI.

Don't you see the irony in that?

I don't. You can escape "politely", tell your opponent that you don't want to continue this game ( plus maybe explain your reasons) and just leave. Resigning whenever you want messes up KGS ranking system, which can in the end affect negatively all players. I think that if this is explained it makes sense… although it could look contradictory at first glance.

This is why KGS takes such a serious view of sandbaggers. They damage the integrity of the rating system. I just wish they would realize that high handicap blitz games also do.

hermitek wrote:

topazg wrote:Don't you see the irony in that?

I don't. You can escape "politely", tell your opponent that you don't want to continue this game ( plus maybe explain your reasons) and just leave. Resigning whenever you want messes up KGS ranking system, which can in the end affect negatively all players. I think that if this is explained it makes sense… although it could look contradictory at first glance.

This whole thread is about taking a stricter view of escapers, yet the way to deal with unpleasant games is to escape. On the basis that if you do choose to escape, the game will sit there (as neither player will want to continue). This means that, eventually, you'll have your 10 games in the escape queue and you'll then automatically lose all 10, which then is exactly the same as resigning the games in the first place.

Philip Traum wrote: since the games don't count after 6 months.

then how can resigning an occasional rated game really hurt the integrity of the rating system?
after 6 months it'll no longer matter.

Because the result would propagate through the system since rank calculations depend on the opponent's rank.

xed_over wrote:

Philip Traum wrote: since the games don't count after 6 months.

then how can resigning an occasional rated game really hurt the integrity of the rating system?
after 6 months it'll no longer matter.

It doesn't hurt very much, assuming you only do it occasionally. But leaving the game hurts the rating system even less, therefore on this argument alone it is a better solution.

But this whole argument is over what should be done in the case that you want to stop playing the game due to opponent's bad manners. KGS admins ask that you leave the game instead of resign it. Is that such a hard request to follow?

To me the primary difference between leaving the game and resigning it is that it accurately represents what happened. A game was started, but one of the players decided he did not want to complete the game normally. Another important reason is that it reinforces the perception that rated games are serious contests of skill, and should not be resigned for reasons other than showing lesser skill than your opponent in that game.

ETA: For those finding it necessary to decide to resign or leave the game, roughly how often does this happen to you over 6 months?

Philip Traum wrote:

topazg wrote:This whole thread is about taking a stricter view of escapers, yet the way to deal with unpleasant games is to escape. On the basis that if you do choose to escape, the game will sit there (as neither player will want to continue). This means that, eventually, you'll have your 10 games in the escape queue and you'll then automatically lose all 10, which then is exactly the same as resigning the games in the first place.

Only if you are very easily offended, since the games don't count after 6 months.

If I resign it, it won't count after 6 months either.

yoyoma wrote:

xed_over wrote:

Philip Traum wrote: since the games don't count after 6 months.

then how can resigning an occasional rated game really hurt the integrity of the rating system?
after 6 months it'll no longer matter.

It doesn't hurt very much, assuming you only do it occasionally. But leaving the game hurts the rating system even less, therefore on this argument alone it is a better solution.

But this whole argument is over what should be done in the case that you want to stop playing the game due to opponent's bad manners. KGS admins ask that you leave the game instead of resign it. Is that such a hard request to follow?

To me the primary difference between leaving the game and resigning it is that it accurately represents what happened. A game was started, but one of the players decided he did not want to complete the game normally. Another important reason is that it reinforces the perception that rated games are serious contests of skill, and should not be resigned for reasons other than showing lesser skill than your opponent in that game.

ETA: For those finding it necessary to decide to resign or leave the game, roughly how often does this happen to you over 6 months?

That's one reason it's a better solution.

For better or worse, the culture of KGS has made escapers a "bad thing". By leaving the game, I effectively mark myself as an escaper, which I feel I should have the right not to do. I was accused quite some time ago by a random person of being a sandbagger+escaper simply because I was a) underrated, and b) had two unfinished games in my list where I was winning - one because of a rude opponent where I'd left, and one because my opponent was losing and he'd left. As a result, I got grief for something that could be easily avoided by resigning those two games, which would have a negligible effect on the system as a whole.

2 games in 6 months is a tiny amount of proportional impact on the server and other people's ratings. However, the impact on me as an individual and my enjoyment of KGS is much larger from what happened above. To me, this is a stronger argument for resigning over escaping.

topazg wrote:By leaving the game, I effectively mark myself as an escaper, which I feel I should have the right not to do.

I don't think there is a mark for an escaper. I don't view it as anything wrong to have unfinished games on the game list.

oren wrote:

topazg wrote:By leaving the game, I effectively mark myself as an escaper, which I feel I should have the right not to do.

I don't think there is a mark for an escaper. I don't view it as anything wrong to have unfinished games on the game list.

But like Topazg said - a lot of people do! There is definitely a very negative connotation with unfinished games. And this is regardless of who is doing the escaping (since it still just shows up as an unfinished game).

schultz wrote:But like Topazg said - a lot of people do! There is definitely a very negative connotation with unfinished games. And this is regardless of who is doing the escaping (since it still just shows up as an unfinished game).

I know. I'm just providing a different viewpoint here. I had many games adjourned with people I know. I figure when I see some unfinished games, that's what happened to other people as well.

If someone leaves on me during a game, I would just leave that as well and hope to resume it later.

topazg wrote:That's one reason it's a better solution.

For better or worse, the culture of KGS has made escapers a "bad thing". By leaving the game, I effectively mark myself as an escaper, which I feel I should have the right not to do. I was accused quite some time ago by a random person of being a sandbagger+escaper simply because I was a) underrated, and b) had two unfinished games in my list where I was winning - one because of a rude opponent where I'd left, and one because my opponent was losing and he'd left. As a result, I got grief for something that could be easily avoided by resigning those two games, which would have a negligible effect on the system as a whole.

2 games in 6 months is a tiny amount of proportional impact on the server and other people's ratings. However, the impact on me as an individual and my enjoyment of KGS is much larger from what happened above. To me, this is a stronger argument for resigning over escaping.

2 games in 6 months is tiny, we agree.

But only 1 random person made a false accusation against you, I think that is an equally tiny number. So I would not change my behaviors to try to please a tiny group of people who make such false accusations. In fact you are changing your behavior to try to please this tiny group, but KGS admins are explicitly asking you not to behave that way. You can't please everyone, but you choose to displease the KGS admins?

oren wrote:

schultz wrote:But like Topazg said - a lot of people do! There is definitely a very negative connotation with unfinished games. And this is regardless of who is doing the escaping (since it still just shows up as an unfinished game).

I know. I'm just providing a different viewpoint here. I had many games adjourned with people I know. I figure when I see some unfinished games, that's what happened to other people as well.

If someone leaves on me during a game, I would just leave that as well and hope to resume it later.

Ah, made the fatal internet flaw of assuming you didn't know what you were talking about! My apologies.

Personally, I don't even play enough games for this to matter - but I can understand the frustration. When I do play, I'm usually just auto-matching - which is a way around any sort of negative connotations before you start a game. I've had really good luck with all the games, too (only played it in the lower SDK ranges (7-9k), though, so "your mileage may vary").