Life In 19x19

Ha ha ha we're obviously playing some super-basic joseki here. tj took 2 minutes to move, some of which must've been realising I had moved and editing the diagram. Or maybe that is just the only non-stupid move in this spot

So I don't really like the cutting points I have there after:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm9 Captures: White: 0 Black: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 2 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 1 O 9 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

But leaving that aside I don't think this is bad at all. I'm making territory. W has a strong shape there in the center but it's not an eye and it has no base. It is out into the center but I think on balance B is better here. I have at least most of the corner and even if my 2 stones there come under pressure I have a threat to disconnect W's top side stone from the rest and then they are floating.

I feel like I made a mistake in my analysis of the other line where I play R13 and W plays R15--it's not "about the same" at all. W gets the corner there. And I can't see any other random move that might be good--I have to defend these stones somehow. I see that W can do a few things like playing at P14 or Q13 but they don't look scarier to me than this line. I'm not crazy about the cutting points but I will live with that.

Just fo reference after the game, the "super-basic joseki" is this

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm1 Captures: White: 0 Black: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . 5 3 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . a . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

But I don't think this is good for B here because it destroys a part of the san-ren-sei. Maybe should have been at 'a' ?

Last move I looked at the lines where he extends from R14 and they seem ok for me. It seems that I get move out of keeping Q14 alive then he does by fattening the sacrifice. In any event this looks like only move to me.

Celebrir wrote:Just fo reference after the game, the "super-basic joseki" is this

$$Wcm1 Captures: White: 0 Black: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . 5 3 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . a . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm1 Captures: White: 0 Black: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . 5 3 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . a . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

But I don't think this is good for B here because it destroys a part of the san-ren-sei. Maybe should have been at 'a' ?

That is a basic joseki, but is indeed bad for black as white gets a strong group at o17 making k16 looks bad. I think the game result is even worse though as white now has a strong group in black's moyo. Black's last move could have been p16 (white can't block or black brings out the ladder stone) to munch o17 and make 4th line territory on the top linking up to k16. That's probably more important than connecting to r12 pincer.

But the real problem was earlier. White's double approach at o17 is an overplay, which black can punish by playing r17. White can cover black, but then black cuts and white has 2 weak groups, whilst black is alive in the corner.

I really don't know what's best here. Q14 would make a terrible shape, so that's out of the question for me. Q12 and tenuki were my other considerations.

What I'm thinking about.

1. Can I tenuki here? My group is stable so I think yes. However, I am not sure whether I should take the corner. Am inclined to think no. BLack can't get in there now and I can respond if I need to later. I think playing a move in the corner is slow. But whenever I come down on one side of this issue or the other I am always wrong.

2. Even if I can tenuki, his group has no base on the side. So should I chase it? Like maybe M17 or something builds my top and I think he has to settle himself somehow.

3. If I should tenuki, which corner should I approach? Low approach to the LR corner seems to coordinate with my other stones, but not perfectly. Maybe low approach and then just back off to the star point? That seems to close to the side group. Maybe slide and then play the small knight to the 4th line? That leaves a gap but I am settled on both sides. Or maybe approach the 3-3 on the other side.

So, I don't really know what to do here.

I don't think I need another move in the corner. If he makes another move there it will be his sente, but I am alive and I don't see a move in the corner that isn't gote, or do I? Where is W going to settle this group? Q18 and M18?

I am thinking Q18 myself is a good move. It takes territory in the corner, and removes part of W's potential base. If I were W I would feel that I have to do something with this group, so it's probably sente.

I'm prepared to let W have the R13 stones if necessary to defend those cutting points, so Q18 helps with that although I don't think it is strictly necessary.

I don't see any particular reason to take the ko--I'm alive and it doesn't seem to matter much to him whether he wins or loses it.

The corner approaches are there but I can play it anytime and since they are 3-3 or 4-4 they aren't as big, I think, as something urgent.

M17 is same idea but not as good.

I've looked this on and off for a couple of days. Short of consulting outside sources or whatever, I can't see how I'm going to find a different move, and the point of this game is to get feedback on how/what I think, so I think that Q18 is better than the corner approaches and I don't see a better tenuki, so I'm going to play Q18. Maybe it is overkill for the corner but those are my reasons for doing it.

I'm fairly happy with the situation in the upper right, so time to take my sente and put it to use elsewhere. I chose this move, because I think it has a nice followup (perhaps not immediately) at G4. I also thought about K4 and L3, but I liked this best.

If he plays in the G4 area, I will ignore it and turn my attention to upper left corner (C14, F16 or F17). If he plays around D10, I may play R9, or something in the upper left, but I haven't decided yet.

So, I didn't expect him to tenuki but continuing to chase with M17 is a vice of mine and it never really seems to work out for me. That seems like a small point, and that move of his seems like a reasonably big size move. W is out, so if I play M17 and he plays another tenuki I am behind then, I think.

So I want to approach one of the corners and the 3-3 corner seems bigger and like it coordinates better with my stones.

I'm playing the low 1-space approach because I didn't like the look of what happened if he built a north-south wall instead of an east-west wall, which I would've hoped for. Then his stone on the bottom centre limits my potential there and he still gets his 3rd line territory, though maybe that is a mistake for W and I had nothing to worry about. Anyway, I am more comfortable with this.