Life In 19x19

deja wrote:I've been thinking about getting Jungsuk in Our Time but from what's been said here, I'm wondering if the Ishida collection might be better given its breadth. On the other hand, why not just get both...

For me, that's always been the best way. I haven't yet gotten that book myself; it's on my list.

Ishida's three volume dictionary was first published 33 years ago, translated from an even earlier Japanese edition. As a result much of the book is out of date. Especially the part on 4-4 point joseki is weak. A lot of developments in 4-4 point joseki occurred after the Ishida books were published. In the other volumes there are variations listed as joseki, i.e. even results locally for both players, but which are no longer considered joseki by professionals. A new edition in Japanese was published in 2009, edited by Takao Shinji. Ishida's disctionary is so old ... we need a newer version. I hope the Takao edition will be translated.

There are two aspects to studying joseki. First is the idea of a sequence of moves locally giving an equal result. Studying these you can learn a lot about positional judgement, shape, and tesuji. The idea is not just to memorize sequences of moves but try to understand why each move was made, what is wrong with alternatives, and how to take advantage of errors. This is a life-long project. The second aspect is learning when to play joseki depending on the whole board position. Probably the best book about this is Yilun Yang's Whole Board Thinking in Joseki These books give you wonderful knowledge of how large scale issues affect somewhat distant corner developments.

Another way to study joseki is to play through lots and lots of pro games, watching what they do in corner sequences.

gowan wrote:Ishida's three volume dictionary was first published 33 years ago, translated from an even earlier Japanese edition. As a result much of the book is out of date. Especially the part on 4-4 point joseki is weak. A lot of developments in 4-4 point joseki occurred after the Ishida books were published. In the other volumes there are variations listed as joseki, i.e. even results locally for both players, but which are no longer considered joseki by professionals. A new edition in Japanese was published in 2009, edited by Takao Shinji. Ishida's disctionary is so old ... we need a newer version. I hope the Takao edition will be translated.

There are two aspects to studying joseki. First is the idea of a sequence of moves locally giving an equal result. Studying these you can learn a lot about positional judgement, shape, and tesuji. The idea is not just to memorize sequences of moves but try to understand why each move was made, what is wrong with alternatives, and how to take advantage of errors. This is a life-long project. The second aspect is learning when to play joseki depending on the whole board position. Probably the best book about this is Yilun Yang's Whole Board Thinking in Joseki These books give you wonderful knowledge of how large scale issues affect somewhat distant corner developments.

Another way to study joseki is to play through lots and lots of pro games, watching what they do in corner sequences.

Ok, that changes things a bit. Now I'm leaning against the Ishida collection. Is it worth the $75.00 dollars, if it's so outdated? If money wasn't an option... but it is. It sucks being a weak player.

deja wrote:Ok, that changes things a bit. Now I'm leaning against the Ishida collection. Is it worth the $75.00 dollars, if it's so outdated? If money wasn't an option... but it is. It sucks being a weak player.

Well, if it's of any comfort I have the whole series and it didn't make me one bit stronger. It did cost a lot though. I suspect you actually have to read them in order to gain from them. Not just stuffing them away in a box somewhere like I did. Perhaps if I sleep next I could internalize some by osmosis. Worth a try.

Do you realize how much you need to study those books to get your money's worth? Eventually you'll will be awesome at joseki but still being crushed on wbaduk by some Korean that just wreaks havoc on your pretty sequences and kills them all. Futile I tell you!

CarlJung wrote:

deja wrote:Ok, that changes things a bit. Now I'm leaning against the Ishida collection. Is it worth the $75.00 dollars, if it's so outdated? If money wasn't an option... but it is. It sucks being a weak player.

Well, if it's of any comfort I have the whole series and it didn't make me one bit stronger. It did cost a lot though. I suspect you actually have to read them in order to gain from them. Not just stuffing them away in a box somewhere like I did. Perhaps if I sleep next I could internalize some by osmosis. Worth a try.

Do you realize how much you need to study those books to get your money's worth? Eventually you'll will be awesome at joseki but still being crushed on wbaduk by some Korean that just wreaks havoc on your pretty sequences and kills them all. Futile I tell you!

Exactly, points for aesthetics, study effort, and financial investment. Merit is so 20th century.

gowan wrote:Ishida's three volume dictionary was first published 33 years ago, translated from an even earlier Japanese edition. As a result much of the book is out of date. Especially the part on 4-4 point joseki is weak. A lot of developments in 4-4 point joseki occurred after the Ishida books were published. In the other volumes there are variations listed as joseki, i.e. even results locally for both players, but which are no longer considered joseki by professionals. A new edition in Japanese was published in 2009, edited by Takao Shinji. Ishida's disctionary is so old ... we need a newer version. I hope the Takao edition will be translated.

There are two aspects to studying joseki. First is the idea of a sequence of moves locally giving an equal result. Studying these you can learn a lot about positional judgement, shape, and tesuji. The idea is not just to memorize sequences of moves but try to understand why each move was made, what is wrong with alternatives, and how to take advantage of errors. This is a life-long project. The second aspect is learning when to play joseki depending on the whole board position. Probably the best book about this is Yilun Yang's Whole Board Thinking in Joseki These books give you wonderful knowledge of how large scale issues affect somewhat distant corner developments.

Another way to study joseki is to play through lots and lots of pro games, watching what they do in corner sequences.

It doesn't matter if Ishida's is out of date. If you study the book, read the explanation, and think for yourself, it is still a great resource.

Ishida's gives sequences that are said not to be joseki. But seeing the sequence and learning about the thought process is still most important. I recommend getting Ishida's, but just remember: think for yourself. You should do that with any joseki book, anyway.

If a single professional ever in their wildest dreams considered a sequence joseki, it's good enough for me.

Do not get hung up on 'this is out of date' ideas. It really has no value. Just keep an open mind. Even when joseki are 'in date', a surprising amount of skill lies in adapting them to the situation - when can you tenuki, or play a strange move, etc.

Ishida is excellent, in my opinion, for anyone wanting a thorough joseki reference. It doesn't contain every joseki, it doesn't have all the details of the joseki it does go into, it has some sequences that maybe aren't played much any more, but to be honest the same is probably true of any higher level go book*. Overall, it's as good value as any go book, and its content is excellent.

*Sakata's guide to fuseki and joseki is a great example - he suggests some lines that don't seem to have ever been played by professionals, but the fact that Sakata considered them playable is enough to make them worthwhile to me

The Ishida books are OOP now (not sure about vol 1, but at least 2 and 3), so if you want them and your local book seller have them you should get them ASAP.
They may be reprinted, maybe even in a revised edition, but I have no information about if either will happen...

/Mats

mohsart wrote:The Ishida books are OOP now (not sure about vol 1, but at least 2 and 3), so if you want them and your local book seller have them you should get them ASAP.

Kiseido, the publisher, claims to have them in stock. I don't know if that's the last that they have or something.

I have that information from the European distibuter Het Paard, on December 13 they wrote "K22, k23 Ishida joseki encyclopedia Now SOLD OUT. A decision about reprints has not yet been made." and they have them marked as "out of print" on their homepage.
Of course the books could have been reprinted, but I would assume that I would have been supplied with that information if so.
I don't know if Kiseido are bad at updating or if there has been a misunderstanding...

Edit: I sent Kiseido a email for clarification, so no need for others to do that ;)

/Mats

For those of you in Europe, there is an underpriced set of Ishida in Switzerland, listed at
http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDet ... 78%26y%3D8

Swift answer from Kiseido: "Our USA office in California still have a few copies. Please order directly from them. Their email address is info@kiseido.com"
I have one or two copies myself, and other vendors may have some too, of course.

/Mats

You would hope that effort would be made to translate the recently released updated Japanese edition of the joseki dictionary given the age of the past edition.

Regarding tchan001's desire to have the Nihon Ki-in's new updated two volume joseki dictionary by Takao Shinji (published in January 2010) translated into English, I am pleased to inform him and other members of this site that Kiseido is hard at work translating this work. We expect the first volume to be published in the fall of 2010 and the second volume in early 2011.

Copies of the Ishida dictionary are still available at Kiseido's office in the USA.

Richard Bozulich wrote:Regarding tchan001's desire to have the Nihon Ki-in's new updated two volume joseki dictionary by Takao Shinji (published in January 2010) translated into English, I am pleased to inform him and other members of this site that Kiseido is hard at work translating this work.

That's great news!

By the way, thank you for all that you've done for so many years now to bring go knowledge to the English readers of the world! From what I've read this effort has at times come at a great personal cost. Many of the books you've written and published are among the most cherished in my library.