Life In 19x19

jts wrote:It seems fairly irresponsible to speculate about the prevalence of depression and suicide among Go players in the absence of any quantitative evidence.

I don't know if irresponsible is the word you're looking for here. Certainly, before any money was appropriated to raising awareness, you'd have to do studies. But you would never do the studies in the first place unless you speculated that there might be a correlation.

jts wrote:Lifetime prevalence estimates of hierarchy-free DSM-III-R/DSM-IV MDE varied widely, from 3% in Japan to 16.9% in the US

Reading these numbers one should remember that the suicide rate is significantly higher in Japan.

OECD statistics:

shapenaji wrote:

jts wrote:It seems fairly irresponsible to speculate about the prevalence of depression and suicide among Go players in the absence of any quantitative evidence.

I don't know if irresponsible is the word you're looking for here. Certainly, before any money was appropriated to raising awareness, you'd have to do studies. But you would never do the studies in the first place unless you speculated that there might be a correlation.

Well, it's a serious disease. It would be pretty ___________ to speculate that herpes, or the bubonic plague, or schizophrenia, or pancreatic cancer were disproportionately prevalent among Go players. Fill in the blank. I of course did not mean to imply that you, personally, were irresponsible: but today's bold speculation is the specious common wisdom of tomorrow.

tchan001 wrote:If 100 persons enter a single elimination tournament and each person gets depressed if they lose, then 99% of the people in the tournament are guaranteed to become depressed as there will only be one "WINNER" of the tournament.

Don't forget that the TD who gets depressed trying to nicely work out a 100 person field in a single elim set up (I guess you give the top 28 first round byes?)

shapenaji wrote:...
I feel like depression disproportionally effects gaming communities. It's not a pleasant topic, but given a number of suicides in the community ...

Got any figures to substantiate this? I wasn't aware of this at all.

Personally, I feel that the number of people who kill themselves is lower than it ought to be.

Greetings,
interesting someone mentioned the suicide rate in Japan. It is the highest in so called industrialized nations. The current figure is more than 30 people a day and increasing as economic and social collapse slowly rears it's ugly head.
Why link this with Go though?
Relative to Korea and China much fewer people play Go and a majority of them are old.
Should one speculate that the young ones are topping themselves....
Puzzled
Buri

Buri wrote:Relative to Korea and China ...

Japan has been on a downtrend or at least a plateau after a downtrend in economic terms for many years. They are still trying to recover from a tsunami disaster which turned into a nuclear disaster.

Meanwhile Korea and China are performing relatively well economically when compared with Japan.

Boidhre wrote:I've seen a few people talking about it. What I wonder is how it affects your play/interest/thoughts about the game.

I get pessimistic about my play, when I look over my games all I can see are the errors. I lose at least a stone in ability I think, though this could be me being negative again? I get anxious about playing and "looking bad" even though really at my level this will happen regardless! Oh and I play very little and I think I'd completely lose interest in the game for a while if I didn't fight this.


I'm curious because I'm nosey but also I believe in fighting stigma by being open about this kind of stuff, not that communities like these are very prejudiced against it or anything. Also, how do you tackle the effect depression has on your game and your life in general? Do you continue to chip away at the game be it through tsumego or whatever or do you put it aside until you feel better again? I'm also curious about general slumps people have, not just clinical depression! I'm also obviously talking about mild depressions here/lead ups to more serious depressions rather than more serious hospitilisation levels of depression where just eating is going to be a challenge never mind playing go!

Go messes with your mind. It challenges you both mentally and psychologically. There are plenty of opportunities to perceive failure. The question (which I know you didn't explicitly ask), "Does go cause depression?" is similar to: "Do video games cause violence?" My answer is: No, but if that bad tendency already exists in someone's personality, then the game has the potential to nurture that tendency.

Awareness of that potential is probably the first step in squelching it, and I appreciate that you've brought up the subject.

For me, it's been a constant struggle to not feel bad about myself when I lose, and I've put in quite a bit of thought into how to reduce the sting of defeat. It's fairly easy to convince oneself that it's irrational, silly and a waste of time and energy to feel bad about losing or to feel embarrassed about playing poorly, but it's quite another thing to really not feel bad or embarrassed.

Of course, there's also the other side of the medal. Winning feels good and few of us are all too keen on getting rid of that feeling, yet logically it seems rather difficult to eliminate the one out losing the other.

I don't have any quick and easy answer, and I've tried a number of tricks to get me through a slump, mostly by focusing on one problem - be it rank angst, fast play, poor handling of an invasion or whatnot - and waiting for a new problem to supplant it. What has helped me most to keep my emotional state on the radar and avoid getting depressed is having talked about the problem both here and with friends. It's also helped to nurture some other interests, particularly physical ones.

daal wrote:The question (which I know you didn't explicitly ask), "Does go cause depression?" is similar to: "Do video games cause violence?" My answer is: No, but if that bad tendency already exists in someone's personality, then the game has the potential to nurture that tendency.

I wasn't implicitly asking it either.

I agree with your answer though, go might trigger a depression in someone but it certainly isn't a causal factor. It's not a trigger for me though, not yet anyway. I don't think I care deeply enough yet about my win/loss ratio. I was happy enough with my progress in go before I hit this latest depression etc. Now maybe if I hit a hard ceiling or plateau it'll start affecting me but then what you talk about, especially with regard to the other hobbies and talking it over with other people, will come into play.

I'm not too sure about playing go causing depression. But NOT playing go definitely causes me depression

Joaz Banbeck wrote:

shapenaji wrote:...
I feel like depression disproportionally effects gaming communities. It's not a pleasant topic, but given a number of suicides in the community ...

Got any figures to substantiate this? I wasn't aware of this at all.

Personally, I feel that the number of people who kill themselves is lower than it ought to be.

No, like I said, this is a hypothesis, it doesn't require facts & figures

And I'll say again, I don't believe that go causes depression.

However, I see go and other similar games being attractive to people who are having difficulty interacting with the world around them. It's an abstraction, losses are okay. Failure is temporary.

I would suspect, for example, that people who are depressed are more likely to play go (Which they can do from indoors), than they are to play volleyball.

I generated the hypothesis from this idea that there is a selection bias toward abstract activities which allow people to avoid social interaction.

Again, that does not imply that people who play go are depressed. Rather that go will have a greater pull for people who are depressed.

EDIT: And let me add that I believe this is culture-specific. I do not think this hypothesis applies to countries, like Japan, where the game is played by a different demographic.

I think it applies to countries like the US, where clubs fostering interaction are less common.

I suffered from Depression and took meds. I've since overcome it, but I have to be careful to not fall into a depression again. If I start to feel it coming on I take a long long walk with my dog and think positive thoughts. Exercise helps. I should mention that meds can be effective but I don't like relying on them so I quit them and I'm managing fine.

You just have to be careful. If the depression is caused by a chemical imbalance in your brain, meditation and lots of exercise can be an alternative to simply taking meds. Also, the meds fuck your brain up a bit so you become worse at Go.

shapenaji wrote:

Joaz Banbeck wrote:

shapenaji wrote:...
I feel like depression disproportionally effects gaming communities. It's not a pleasant topic, but given a number of suicides in the community ...

Got any figures to substantiate this? I wasn't aware of this at all.

Personally, I feel that the number of people who kill themselves is lower than it ought to be.

No, like I said, this is a hypothesis, it doesn't require facts & figures

And I'll say again, I don't believe that go causes depression.

However, I see go and other similar games being attractive to people who are having difficulty interacting with the world around them. It's an abstraction, losses are okay. Failure is temporary.

I would suspect, for example, that people who are depressed are more likely to play go (Which they can do from indoors), than they are to play volleyball.

I generated the hypothesis from this idea that there is a selection bias toward abstract activities which allow people to avoid social interaction.

Again, that does not imply that people who play go are depressed. Rather that go will have a greater pull for people who are depressed.

EDIT: And let me add that I believe this is culture-specific. I do not think this hypothesis applies to countries, like Japan, where the game is played by a different demographic.

I think it applies to countries like the US, where clubs fostering interaction are less common.

But as a counter point as someone who suffers from depression and plays go, one of the things I love about the game is the social interaction that surrounds it. Anecdotal but if I wanted to avoid human contact I'd go back to playing Civilisation obsessively or something.

Boidhre wrote:I've seen a few people talking about it. What I wonder is how it affects your play/interest/thoughts about the game.

I get pessimistic about my play, when I look over my games all I can see are the errors. I lose at least a stone in ability I think, though this could be me being negative again? I get anxious about playing and "looking bad" even though really at my level this will happen regardless! Oh and I play very little and I think I'd completely lose interest in the game for a while if I didn't fight this.


I'm curious because I'm nosey but also I believe in fighting stigma by being open about this kind of stuff, not that communities like these are very prejudiced against it or anything. Also, how do you tackle the effect depression has on your game and your life in general? Do you continue to chip away at the game be it through tsumego or whatever or do you put it aside until you feel better again? I'm also curious about general slumps people have, not just clinical depression! I'm also obviously talking about mild depressions here/lead ups to more serious depressions rather than more serious hospitilisation levels of depression where just eating is going to be a challenge never mind playing go!

If you are interested in the psychology of competitors, I recommend Alice Miller's "The Drama of the Gifted Child":
http://www.amazon.com/The-Drama-Gifted- ... 0465016901

Here is a quote from a review that may be relevant:

Gifted children are often the products of emotional abuse by a narcissistic parent. However, if the child's great need for admiration is not met, for his/her looks, intelligence or achievements, he/she falls into severe depression. Miller says one can only be free from depression "when self-esteem is based on the authenticity of one's own feelings and not on the possession of certain qualities."

Rémi

Kind of off-topic, but I've always wondered if there aren't any hikikomori who play all day and become high-dan players eventually.

As for me, go has helped me a lot during a time of despair. I was very apathetic to everything around me, and felt no sense of purpose, no reason to try anything. Go started to fascinate me, and it game me a simple goal: to get better. Still working on it.