Life In 19x19

xed_over wrote:

Koosh wrote:I had a very interesting conversation with a promotional guru at congress this year. His idea was that instead of bashing people for enjoying the game the way they like and criticizing peoples’ moves, we should let people play moves they like to play, study books they like to study, and generally enjoy the game. He argued that our circle would be much better off with three million 25 kyu players than with a handful of 7dan players. I wholeheartedly agree with him.

Yes, Terry Benson has some very unique ideas, and is quite passionate about them. I too agree with him.

I think its why I no longer play go. I'm not trying to improve. I don't want to review each and every move in painstaking detail after every game. I don't care if I don't win the tournament.

I enjoy the game. It would be nice if I can eventually get better, but its no longer necessary for my enjoyment of the game. I like teaching beginners. I don't need to be pro or even dan level to do so.

Sometimes, I just want to play, without having to put too much thought into the game.

I don't see where you said the reason you no longer play go?

xed_over wrote:I think its why I no longer play go. I'm not trying to improve. I don't want to review each and every move in painstaking detail after every game. I don't care if I don't win the tournament.

And the point of what he said was that you don't need to worry about these things. Just play, and just have fun.

Your bound to run into people who are crazy obsessive about improving and enjoy showing their enthusiasm on this concept. I say that as a policy, instead of becoming preoccupied with the difference in attitude toward the game, we make it a priority to beat them down (as a proper opponent should!) so that they are motivated to continue down their path.

It's a win-win situation.

Koosh wrote:Your bound to run into people who are crazy obsessive about improving and enjoy showing their enthusiasm on this concept.

*whistles innocently*

See what I mean? You've got to put these people in their place.

yoyoma wrote:I don't see where you said the reason you no longer play go?

it's the "what are you doing to improve?" mentality that I run into everywhere, and the over analyze every move that I get tired of.

I much prefer the casual, social, "it's ok to take back a move and laugh out loud", or even no need to finish a game, type of play. doesn't matter who wins or loses.

I don't think there are many like me, yet.

xed_over wrote:

yoyoma wrote:I don't see where you said the reason you no longer play go?

it's the "what are you doing to improve?" mentality that I run into everywhere, and the over analyze every move that I get tired of.

I much prefer the casual, social, "it's ok to take back a move and laugh out loud", or even no need to finish a game, type of play. doesn't matter who wins or loses.

I don't think there are many like me, yet.

I think one reason we may be a long way from a casual go mentality is that we don't agree on what would constitute it. I would like to think you could talk and laugh even in a (fairly) serious game, but I would never want "oh, can I take that back?" to be a socially acceptable question to ask, even in amateur blind go.

At my old club, it was often offered, not asked for. Both players look at a move, laugh, then one says to the other "take that back".

hyperpape wrote:At my old club, it was often offered, not asked for. Both players look at a move, laugh, then one says to the other "take that back".

Ditto, and I do prefer the casual approach to game results - I don't think it equates to a casual approach to the game itself though. I think you can still be very serious about studying and getting better without having to compromise a laid back approach to what you can do in the games themselves. You can always refuse the take back if you think you'll learn a better lesson from it (or equivalent reason)

xed_over wrote:It's the "what are you doing to improve?" mentality that I run into everywhere, and the over analyze every move that I get tired of.

I much prefer the casual, social, "it's ok to take back a move and laugh out loud", or even no need to finish a game, type of play. doesn't matter who wins or loses.

I don't think there are many like me, yet.

I completely understand your thought on this, mainly because I used to be the one over-analyzing every move after the game before I realized just how bored and annoyed it made my friends. On the other hand, I have a number of opponents who like to analyze games right afterwards.

Nowadays, we tend to keep it brief, to a point where we can say, “I think the game was lost here,” or “This move had to be a big mistake (agree, disagree).” It’s a productive review that usually lasts about 5 minutes, and we tend to do it only when it was a serious game. For people who aren’t interested in reviewing, I will just make a mental note of some place where I think I made a mistake and look at it later. No big deal – I think this is a good way to handle things.

Take backs exist in every game. Whether or not it is acceptable just depends on who you are playing. In casual games with a friend who is okay with it, no problem. There are a finite number of moves in a situation so when take backs are involved, the other player’s chance to win by knockout (we all love KO’s, admit it) is lowered so I would argue that it removes a bit of the excitement from the game.

jts wrote:I think one reason we may be a long way from a casual go mentality is that we don't agree on what would constitute it. I would like to think you could talk and laugh even in a (fairly) serious game, but I would never want "oh, can I take that back?" to be a socially acceptable question to ask, even in amateur blind go.

Or for another club member to say anything about the game I'm playing.
Or, if you're my opponent, to criticize my moves while we're playing rather than in review.
Or to text on your phone constantly during our game.

I think I made a mistake even mentioning "take backs". Take backs are not the issue, its the overall attitude towards the game and its outcome -- people not wanting to lose.

Take backs can go too far the other direction too. I played a game once where my opponent wanted to "take back" a move to explore an alternate variation in the middle of the game. I didn't realize that's what he was doing at first, so I was just playing the variation as the new main line (not trying to remember how to get back to 30 moves earlier). After 10 or more such take backs throughout the game and over 2 hours later -- I was tired and probably had a 7-3 record against this kid all within this single game. If I ever remember who he is, I'll never play him again

Araban wrote:

jts wrote:I think one reason we may be a long way from a casual go mentality is that we don't agree on what would constitute it. I would like to think you could talk and laugh even in a (fairly) serious game, but I would never want "oh, can I take that back?" to be a socially acceptable question to ask, even in amateur blind go.

Or for another club member to say anything about the game I'm playing.
Or, if you're my opponent, to criticize my moves while we're playing rather than in review.
Or to text on your phone constantly during our game.

Sounds like you instinctively want to play serious games, except for the third, which is just about general etiquette.

I realize this thread is a couple months old but I've been away from the forums (and Go in general) for a while.

I'd like to weigh in on a few points. I definitely understand the feeling of the topic title. I've done that way too often. I have anxiety issues when it comes to Go for some reason. Whether it's online or face to face I get nervous (if you've seen Hikaru no Go, think of the scene when Hikaru and Akira are about to play in the middle school team tournament). Online it's easy to run away instead of facing my anxiety, at the club or a tournament, in front of my opponent, I have to face it and I think that's better for me. I want to play more but it is quite hard to face a fear when avoiding it is as easy as not clicking a button on the computer.

I also found the idea of improvement vs enjoyment interesting. I think everyone enjoys improving. The disparity, from what's been said, seems to be in the attitude that people who are actively trying to improve are more likely to take towards the game. Playing seriously instead of casually, wanting to review the game in detail afterwards, and wanting to focus instead of having a conversation during the game don't seem, to me, to be bad things; but I'd place myself among the players who are actively trying to improve. That's not to say that I don't enjoy the game. I love seeing high level games and I love playing, which is why I want to improve.

xed_over wrote:I don't care if I don't win the tournament.

This quote seems odd to me though. I've always seen tournaments, in any game/event, to be competitive and winning and losing are important in a competition by nature. I know, with some tournament formats, that it can be impossible to win the whole tournament if you don't enter at at least a certain rank but if that's the case I'd consider winning all my games or finishing with the best record in my division to be the goal. If not, what's the differences between playing in a tournament and playing at the club, why enter the tournament? Or did I misunderstand what you meant?

Josh Hatch wrote:

xed_over wrote:I don't care if I don't win the tournament.

This quote seems odd to me though. I've always seen tournaments, in any game/event, to be competitive and winning and losing are important in a competition by nature.

Yeah, I possibly misspoke there and wasn't very careful about my choice of wording, so you have to read that statement in the fuller context of my earlier post.

In an actual tournament, yeah, I'm doing my best to play to win.

But I don't play in tournaments any more, cause I'm not interested in trying to win them. I don't remember the last tournament I've played in.

Oh, okay. I understood your points about why you didn't like to play competitively but then you mentioned tournaments and it seemed a little odd. I get it now. I hope you can find people with the same attitude to the game or a compromise with those who approach it differently.