#176 - Blake vs. skydyr

Blake · Post by **Blake** » Sat Aug 18, 2012 6:23 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W White 9 $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O W . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

skydyr · Post by **skydyr** » Sun Aug 19, 2012 5:54 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$cm10 $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O O 1 O . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Blake · Post by **Blake** » Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:55 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$cm10 $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

skydyr · Post by **skydyr** » Wed Aug 22, 2012 7:53 am

I originally played the wedge expecting to fill like so, or similarly:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$cm1 $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 6 5 . . . . . $$ | . . 4 3 . . . . . $$ | . . O . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . X X 1 X . . . $$ | . 7 O O X O 2 . . $$ | . 8 . . O . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ -------------------[/go]

Now I'm wondering about alternatives.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$cm1 5 at marked $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . O . . . . . . $$ | . . . 4 3 . . . . $$ | . 9 X X 2 X . . . $$ | . 7 O O B O 1 . . $$ | . . . 8 O 6 . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ -------------------[/go]

This would let black take a strong position on the lower side, and might coordinate well with more pressure on white's bottom right stone. The question is what to do if white fills the ko instead?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 Three at marked. $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . O . . 7 . . . $$ | . . . 4 2 5 . . . $$ | . . X X 1 X 6 . . $$ | . . O O B O X . . $$ | . . . . O . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ -------------------[/go]

This looks pretty bad for black. White has the corner, and black is split and heavy. Black could perhaps split 5 and 7 from the side, but it still seems like a tough fight, and one not worth starting. The hane on the other side doesn't do much either, from what I can tell.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 4 at marked. $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . O . . . . . . $$ | . . . 5 3 T . . . $$ | . . X X 2 X 1 . . $$ | . . O O B O S . . $$ | . . . . O . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ -------------------[/go]

This seems to let the white side stone off somewhat lightly, but black can later press on the bottom right or play the elephant jump cum pincer at O3 and then block white at the square point. The triangle point ladder works for black at the moment, but pretty much any approach to the upper right from the right side breaks the ladder. If he plays a keima kakari at r14, the attach-extend joseki should keep the ladder broken, but what does black do for a different approach? I don't think dealing with a double high approach is a winning move if black doesn't have to. Black could take sente to play r14 or q14 himself and get rid of the aji, but that lets white take care of the bottom side or the left. I still kind of like this move because it seems deep, but I have to conclude it's not a winning move. If anyone else has any thoughts on it, I'd love to hear them.

On second thought, black has the peep at d7 which sets up a loose ladder to protect the cut. A white move at c7 instead of c8 would prevent that, but I think that black could then pincer the white group pretty successfully. That would start a running fight, but I think black could profit more in the top left than white would profit on the bottom, as I expect the bottom will go to white anyways, and white would be making 3rd line territory. I'm pretty sure I'm going to play this, but I still have this nagging feeling that I am missing something. I haven't read anything terrible, so as I keep telling people, I have to play as I read to maintain any sense of fighting spirit.

The real question is how this compares to the original diagram. I think it keeps white lower on the bottom, at the expense of making the bottom left more solid. Is this better, worse, or just different?

I think the variation with the extension gives black better shape in the center for the fight to come.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$cm12 $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X X . X 1 . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

illluck · Post by **illluck** » Wed Aug 22, 2012 8:29 am

Blake · Post by **Blake** » Wed Aug 22, 2012 7:52 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ White 13 $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X X W X X . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

White 13. I can only count this as an unexpected gift, probably due to skydyr's thinking too much. I wanted sente, now I get it; I anticipate this sequence:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . b d 3 1 . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . a X X O X X . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . c O O 2 O . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

The questions after :b1:

to

are: which corner should White address first? Does white a through black d hold any attraction? It could be seen as small, but the reverse sente is grossly forcing (beginning with Black at c). This could be seen as a vital point. From the size standpoint, the top is clearly the most important; it's very open, with both stones in the corners on the fourth line.

skydyr · Post by **skydyr** » Thu Aug 23, 2012 7:01 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$cm14 $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X X O X X . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Blake · Post by **Blake** » Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:04 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B White 15 $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X X O X X . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O O W O . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:27 pm

illluck · Post by **illluck** » Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:39 pm

@Edlee:

skydyr · Post by **skydyr** » Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:07 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm16 $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X X O X X . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:26 pm

illluck,

illluck · Post by **illluck** » Thu Aug 23, 2012 10:03 pm

@Edlee,

Blake · Post by **Blake** » Fri Aug 24, 2012 5:22 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B White 17 $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X X O X X . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Fri Aug 24, 2012 5:30 pm

Life In 19x19

#176 - Blake vs. skydyr

Re: #176 - Blake vs. skydyr

Re: #176 - Blake vs. skydyr

Re: #176 - Blake vs. skydyr

Re: #176 - Blake vs. skydyr

Re: #176 - Blake vs. skydyr

Re: #176 - Blake vs. skydyr

Re: #176 - Blake vs. skydyr

Re: #176 - Blake vs. skydyr

Re: #176 - Blake vs. skydyr

Re: #176 - Blake vs. skydyr

Re: #176 - Blake vs. skydyr

Re: #176 - Blake vs. skydyr

Re: #176 - Blake vs. skydyr