Life In 19x19

I'm curious, Shapenaji, what was the lingua franca for this exchange? It can be awfully hard to give subtle, constructive criticism in a foreign language; often you feel pleased with yourself just for managing to get the point across at all.

jts wrote:I'm curious, Shapenaji, what was the lingua franca for this exchange? It can be awfully hard to give subtle, constructive criticism in a foreign language; often you feel pleased with yourself just for managing to get the point across at all.

I don't think any amount of nuance could make expressing surprise at how slowly someone has progressed anything but rude...

Splatted wrote:

jts wrote:I'm curious, Shapenaji, what was the lingua franca for this exchange? It can be awfully hard to give subtle, constructive criticism in a foreign language; often you feel pleased with yourself just for managing to get the point across at all.

I don't think any amount of nuance could make expressing surprise at how slowly someone has progressed anything but rude...

Well, maybe he was used to full-time Go students and assumed shapenaji was one. Even then, it wouldn't be the most polite reaction. The American rude question to a fast improver would be: What? You got that strong that fast? Don't you have a job?

Anyway, I agree with shapenaji's point. It's hard to tell how strong someone is just by looking at a game. It's hard to tell even by playing them especially if you are not close their level. Even pros have this problem a little. Many players have commented that it was hard to appreciate how strong Lee Changho was until they played him, because he wasn't doing anything spectacular or brilliant. He was just somehow not losing.

jts wrote:I'm curious, Shapenaji, what was the lingua franca for this exchange? It can be awfully hard to give subtle, constructive criticism in a foreign language; often you feel pleased with yourself just for managing to get the point across at all.

English, his was pretty good. I suppose there could be a misunderstanding there, but the comment about how long I was playing was pretty plain. His body language and tone were very dismissive at the end as well. (shifted from his body facing forward to sitting sideways, as though he wanted to go). Rather wish he had.

Now that I think about it, I'm starting to remember more. Hell, I think I repressed some of this. Right when I was at my beet-red boiling point, he started asking me problems.

(Not Tsumego, the board was more or less open, they were questions covering the things he had just laid out on the board, showing how much territory the stones at each level could make in the center and on the side.)

I made the move I believed was right (And trust me, this board was completely open to interpretation.) I suspected he was after a "There is more territory on the side than in the middle". but I saw excellent reasons for a center strategy on the board. His answer was obvious given his previous patronizing lesson and I figured that if I was going to get nothing else out of it at this point, I was going to pull a takemiya and play the moves I believed in. He just sorta slapped it away and started laying out a block of territory on the side and then one in center showing how many stones made how much territory.

I tried to show why I believed my move had potential. He pulled it off the board and just gestured at the little squares of territory he had built. Finally, I realized that I wasn't getting out of there until he was satisfied, and just started making the obvious moves. That's when he left.

Addendum:

Man it keeps flooding back, okay my first comment in that last post is wrong.

His english was NOT good, which is why his student was there. His student's english was pretty good.

So maybe there were some mistranslations, but the gestures and body language were still pretty telling.

Is anyone else imagining Shapenaji recounting this in therapy?

shapenaji wrote:I made the move I believed was right (And trust me, this board was completely open to interpretation.) I suspected he was after a "There is more territory on the side than in the middle". but I saw excellent reasons for a center strategy on the board. His answer was obvious given his previous patronizing lesson and I figured that if I was going to get nothing else out of it at this point, I was going to pull a takemiya and play the moves I believed in. He just sorta slapped it away and started laying out a block of territory on the side and then one in center showing how many stones made how much territory.

I tried to show why I believed my move had potential. He pulled it off the board and just gestured at the little squares of territory he had built. Finally, I realized that I wasn't getting out of there until he was satisfied, and just started making the obvious moves. That's when he left.

hahaha... actually, this kinda reminds me of a recent lesson I was trying to give to a DDK (at least 10+ stones weaker, I think. maybe not).

(and I don't mean to make light of or belittle your experience at all -- especially since I don't have your shoes)

my "student" kept trying to play complicated moves and overplays, and I kept trying to tell him to just keep it simple [for now].

I can imagine the pro feeling something similar towards you, to keep it simple before trying complicated. And from what I understand of their teaching methods (from reading Mr Yilun Yang's books, etc.), that they just expect their students to obey without questioning (or something to that affect).

I think I'm siding with Tami's simple hypothesis at this point.

xed_over wrote:

shapenaji wrote:I made the move I believed was right (And trust me, this board was completely open to interpretation.) I suspected he was after a "There is more territory on the side than in the middle". but I saw excellent reasons for a center strategy on the board. His answer was obvious given his previous patronizing lesson and I figured that if I was going to get nothing else out of it at this point, I was going to pull a takemiya and play the moves I believed in. He just sorta slapped it away and started laying out a block of territory on the side and then one in center showing how many stones made how much territory.

I tried to show why I believed my move had potential. He pulled it off the board and just gestured at the little squares of territory he had built. Finally, I realized that I wasn't getting out of there until he was satisfied, and just started making the obvious moves. That's when he left.

hahaha... actually, this kinda reminds me of a recent lesson I was trying to give to a DDK (at least 10+ stones weaker, I think. maybe not).

(and I don't mean to make light of or belittle your experience at all -- especially since I don't have your shoes)

my "student" kept trying to play complicated moves and overplays, and I kept trying to tell him to just keep it simple [for now].

I can imagine the pro feeling something similar towards you, to keep it simple before trying complicated. And from what I understand of their teaching methods (from reading Mr Yilun Yang's books, etc.), that they just expect their students to obey without questioning (or something to that affect).

I find that it is better not to solicit or give suggestions to people you are actually playing.
A) Generally they arn't qualified. IE they have not taken a professional exam.
B) Even if they were able to beat you, it doesn't mean they understand the strategy that you were trying to employ and can give you tips on that particular strategy. IE we've all heard the line of victory and line of defeat, but that isn't the only way to carve the board.

However, neither of these apply to shapenaji's case I presume.

Outside East Asia, it is so easy to waste time while improving. E.g., from 14.5k to 9k I wasted (well, it was great fun nevertheless) 1.5 years just because I got the bad advice not to read books yet and nobody told me to learn from my mistakes at all. From 3d to 5d, I wasted over 3 years because about 4 of 5 books I really needed were simply unavailable. For the 1.5 years from 9k to 3d, everything was available at least somehow.

In Western countries before the internet, it was also easy to learn go at a late age. Had I known of its existence, I would, of course, have started playing at 4. I was 20 when I really started.

Maybe that professional was not so well aware of our environmental problems?