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Re: #182 Nathan vs. lesenv
Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 8:50 am
by Nathan
$$Bcm6 Prisoners: none
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm6 Prisoners: none
Re: #182 Nathan vs. lesenv
Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:33 am
by Uberdude
Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 12:49 pm
by EdLee
For beginners,
Uberdude's
hane is a natural candidate to consider (must confirm with reading)...
$$B
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$B...because locally the shape is not good for W:
(proverb: "hane at the head of two stones" -- this happens twice,
, for the two
stones)
$$B
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$B
Re: #182 Nathan vs. lesenv
Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 12:21 am
by lesenv
hm, i didn't see this move before.
$$Bcm6 Prisoners: none
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm6 Prisoners: nonehere i have the wall, his corner would be bigger
$$Bcm6 Prisoners: none
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm6 Prisoners: nonehere you get the outside, i'm small, that's no good. plus he has sente
so, i'll take the outside, white can play r15 to connect, i have to think about the next move.
first i have to make sure to get the wall. i'm curious whether this works.
$$Bcm6 Prisoners: none
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm6 Prisoners: none
Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:45 am
by EdLee
For beginners. Only move for W:
$$W
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$W
Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 2:57 am
by EdLee
For beginners. In lesenv's second variation, lesenv missed the vital point twice.
lesenv wrote: $$Bm6
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bm6First time:
at (a) instead: "hane at the head of two
stones":
lesenv wrote: $$Bm6
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bm6Second time:
at (b) instead: "hane at the head of two
stones":
lesenv wrote: $$Bm6
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bm6Variation: even if W missed (b), at least W wants to reduce another B liberty:
$$Bm6
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bm6
Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 3:13 am
by EdLee
For beginners. In lesenv's first variation...
lesenv wrote: $$Bm6
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bm6 ...W can still connect back to
with
:
$$W
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$WProverb: "hane at the head of two (
) stones" --
is the same vital point (again):
$$W
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$W
Re: #182 Nathan vs. lesenv
Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 8:05 am
by Nathan
$$Bcm6 Prisoners: none
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm6 Prisoners: none
Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 12:45 pm
by EdLee
Nathan,
Nathan wrote: I dont think this was the best move for black, but my response is pretty straight forward.
What do you think was the best move for B?
Re: #182 Nathan vs. lesenv
Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:06 pm
by lesenv
$$Bcm10 Prisoners: none
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm10 Prisoners: none
hm, i stopped to think at 4, but now i think this doesn't connect to white stones
$$B Prisoners: none
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$B Prisoners: none
Re: #182 Nathan vs. lesenv
Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 2:21 pm
by Nathan
$$Bcm10 Prisoners: none
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm10 Prisoners: none
Ok so Ed is keeping on me about this whole malkovich thing.
I'll do my best.
So for my statement saying p15 was not ideal for b. I feel it gives white a more solid shape than before, and also leaves two weaknesses in bs shape with the cut at q15 and the hane at s16. It goes against the ole proverb of do not attack weak stones by attaching. However in defense of the move it does try to keep r14 seperated which is a good idea. Below is an embarrassing attempts at reading
$$Bcm10 Prisoners: none
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm10 Prisoners: noneA seems like a conservative choice that would be a good result for w, while B would go for a kill and has some risk involved. either way i dont like bs position very well
So the other move that come to mind would be the hane at s17 which focuses on attacking whites weakness and not letting white get the corner.
$$Bcm10 Prisoners: none
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm10 Prisoners: noneSeems playable for black.
Attempting to explain things really makes me feel weak, and realize how very little i know.
Oh yea so now the move I am doing now, My first instinct was to play s16 it seemed to be the best way to attack black, and take the corner to settle, and all that good stuff. But then looking ahead b o17 looked really annoying. Therefore I am playing solidly and connecting my groups where I have two good follow ups at either s16 or o15.
Re: #182 Nathan vs. lesenv
Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 12:32 am
by lesenv
i want to take the big point
a , but first i extend to
. the lonely stone would be too easy to be captured. when white blocks, then i can play the big point. if white doesn't block, later i can have a possibly capture at
b .
$$Bcm12 Prisoners: none
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm12 Prisoners: none$$Bcm12 Prisoners: none
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm12 Prisoners: none
Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 2:20 am
by EdLee
For beginners. lesenv wrote: $$Bm12
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bm12 With the above
, B gets two local sente moves at (b) and (c), like this:
$$B
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$BInstead of
, it's better for W to block the other side with
, the empty triangle.
The reason: both
and
kill the two
stones...
$$W
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$W...but if B hanes with
, then W can now block with
:
$$W
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$WContrast this with the original
: W could not resist the same way, because
captures the two
stones:
$$Bm12
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bm12 In addition, whether W blocks with (x =
) or (y =
) affects the W(z) connection to
:
$$B
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$B
Re: #182 Nathan vs. lesenv
Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 8:16 am
by skydyr
Is there a reason white shouldn't capture with the ladder, like so?
$$Bcm10 Prisoners: none
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm10 Prisoners: none
Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 11:46 am
by EdLee
skydyr,
skydyr wrote: Is there a reason white shouldn't capture with the ladder, like so?
$$Bm10
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bm10Excellent question. I also wondered about the ladder versus
in the real game.
Pro move is your ladder capture.
hane is a natural candidate to consider (must confirm with reading)...
, for the two 
stones)
at (a) instead: "hane at the head of two 
stones":
at (b) instead: "hane at the head of two 
stones":
:
) stones" -- 
. the lonely stone would be too easy to be captured. when white blocks, then i can play the big point. if white doesn't block, later i can have a possibly capture at b.
, B gets two local sente moves at (b) and (c), like this:
, then W can now block with 
:
captures the two 
:
in the real game.