Life In 19x19

Posted: **Tue Nov 06, 2012 4:48 pm**

A few things ive noticed about korean pros from watching baduk tv:

1. They are very good at exchanging large groups like 40 points and still winning... great counting

2. They don't have this super aggressive fighting style everyone says they do, they also study joseki and such unlike everyone says, and the moves they make actually make sense.

3. The new pros in korea arent as strong as I thought they would be, maybe 6D-7D kgs, but they are better at counting and slow games than kgs 6D-7D are.

4. Lee Seedol is normal! He talks about his wife and kid and what not, and about how his mind "woke up" or he realized something about his go in 2000 or so before he won all those titles and games.

5. The difference between the "best move" and "winning move or the move to win" is huge and something amateurs don't think about.

Overall Ive learned a few trick plays, joseki, but much more about the pro world in korea and their thinking than anything else.

Posted: **Tue Nov 06, 2012 5:19 pm**

NoSkill wrote:3. The new pros in korea arent as strong as I thought they would be, maybe 6D-7D kgs, but they are better at counting and slow games than kgs 6D-7D are.

This cannot possibly be right. Even the weaker new pros (the two kids who became pros through a special tournament for kids, and not through the regular entrance tournament that is open to adults and older teenagers as well) are 9 dan on Tygem. One of those kids nearly beat Lee Sedol in a major tournament. By objective standards, they should be at least 9 dan on KGS. Lee Donghun, who became pro last year, lost by only 1/2 point to Tan Xiao in the Nongshim Cup. Na Hyun made the semi-final of the Samsung Cup in his first year as a pro. The gap between the strongest players and new pros is very narrow. To say that new pros would be KGS 6d/7d is to say that Lee Sedol or Gu Li might be on par with KGS 7d/8d/9d.

Posted: **Tue Nov 06, 2012 5:22 pm**

lemmata wrote:
NoSkill wrote:3. The new pros in korea arent as strong as I thought they would be, maybe 6D-7D kgs, but they are better at counting and slow games than kgs 6D-7D are.
This cannot possibly be right. Even the weaker new pros (the two kids who became pros through a special tournament for kids, and not through the regular entrance tournament that is open to adults and older teenagers as well) are 9 dan on Tygem. One of those kids nearly beat Lee Sedol in a major tournament. By objective standards, they should be at least 9 dan on KGS. Lee Donghun, who became pro last year, lost by only 1/2 point to Tan Xiao in the Nongshim Cup. Na Hyun made the semi-final of the Samsung Cup in his first year as a pro. The gap between the strongest players and new pros is very narrow. To say that new pros would be KGS 6d/7d is to say that Lee Sedol or Gu Li might be on par with KGS 7d/8d/9d.

I guess it is possible i misjudged, but as it seemed the kids were strong for sure, but not the super machines they are made out to be. Im talking about the same pros you are, the two kids, and from my understanding a regular pro like 5p-9p watching can see many mistakes of course, but it seemed to be me watching it they were strong, but not as strong as i might have thought.

Great counting
Great liberty counting as well

These were the two main strengths I saw

things I didnt see I thought I would
Super deep reading
Anything really super special

They are good, but not like "WOW!" good. I was a bit surprised at how good their counting was to know black was losing, and to be able to tell black won the semeai, but a lot of it didn't impress me as much as I thought it would.

Posted: **Tue Nov 06, 2012 11:24 pm**

I think I understand what you mean. It is really difficult for us to recognize the strength of the pros. In fact, personally, I don't understand the ways in which the pros are strong when I look at a typical pro game either. I don't know how strong you are, but I bet the same is true for most players who are weaker than 6 dan on KGS.

That said, the objective evidence of their strength is fairly clear. MilanMilan is a 2 dan pro from China who is no longer playing competitively against other pros. One might say that he is among the weaker pros out there (of course, he is many stones stronger than most amateurs). However, he is a strong 9 dan on KGS. There are many former insei who are 9 dans on KGS but could not come close to passing the pro exam.

Of course, your expectations might just have been too high. No ghost moves or ear-reddening moves, right? Then again, not all pros are Jowa or Shusaku. Some pros can move the emotions of amateurs. That is why Gu Li and Lee Sedol are so popular. It may be a matter of style. If I recall correctly, the game between the two youngsters that you saw was definitely a conservative game according to the commentators; the winner would become a pro and the loser would have to win another game, so they tried not to decide things quickly.

Posted: **Wed Nov 07, 2012 12:04 am**

If you are looking for some kind of spectacular move which changes game's result, you won't find in most of pro games. But take a look at games played by Lee Changho when he was dominating world tournament. You will never find any move that impress you specially but he manages to win most of times. Unless Lee Changho explains his move(thought process), you will not be impressed. One famous player who played against Lee Changho said that he didn't know how or why he lost game.

Posted: **Wed Nov 07, 2012 1:43 am**

trout wrote:If you are looking for some kind of spectacular move which changes game's result, you won't find in most of pro games. But take a look at games played by Lee Changho when he was dominating world tournament. You will never find any move that impress you specially but he manages to win most of times. Unless Lee Changho explains his move(thought process), you will not be impressed. One famous player who played against Lee Changho said that he didn't know how or why he lost game.

http://senseis.xmp.net wrote:Quoting loosely, Rui Naiwei says Yi lets you do what you want yet wins over you at the end. Chang Hao, a top rated Chinese player, once said You get to know how strong Yi is only when you play him.

For many years, understandably, players refused to believe how strong Yi was. He does not pull any ace-in-the-hole moves that leave you stunned. He does not overwhelm you with power or brilliance. Cho ChiKun in his prime before the final matches of a World Go competition proudly -- and half jokingly -- announced that he was going to teach Yi a few "lessons" and lost three straight games. Cho could not understand why he lost.

Posted: **Wed Nov 07, 2012 6:17 am**

To update I think baduk tv has helped me a little, even if most of what ive learned is just joseki/trick plays... I think seeing real top pros play and how they think and how the real baduk world is has allowed me to get stronger.

Ive gained a few stones I think, ive beat three 2k in a row by 50-75 points,

Posted: **Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:03 pm**

So far I have watched about half of the english library, or maybe 1/3. I like the videos and here is what I have learned:

1. A few variations of a common opening pattern
2. A few trick plays and refutations in handicap games
3. A lot of information about the pro world, who is the top/upcoming, etc.

I do feel like you learn something else, but you can't describe it. Seeing pros play and hearing the commentators think lets you get inside a pros head and you can tell something different about your own go, and watching so many pro games makes your own games better because when I play I feel like I see things I normally wouldnt.

Overall thought, I think the best bang for your buck would be to just buy a 1$ trial for a week and watch the english videos you want to watch, or a month 50$ if you need to, then only get the 7$ per week package where you can watch baduk tv live. It doesnt really matter whether you speak english, you can just watch the games and see what the pros are commentating, even in another language, and learn enough that over a month even if you only use it 3-4 times a week it would be worth it.

I love the english videos, but there simply isn't enough in the library that I would say it is worth 50$ a month, because the rate of new videos is decent, but if once you have watched the entire library you only get one 15-50 minute english video every 2-3 days.

If you really want more than just the live, you can get the entire saved library of the korean videos and the live for 20$ a month, which has 30 pages of videos, way more than the english one. So I recommend those two over the english one, simply due to the size of the library.

But, I do feel I play better if I watch 5-15 minutes of korean baduk tv or english baduk tv before playing, probably because it helps me get mentally prepared. So there are several advantages to buying these and using them. I think I have gained a few stones, usually i am beating 3k and 2k by 30-50 points, except for today which I was in a slump this morning and lost 3 in a row.

Posted: **Sun Nov 11, 2012 4:18 pm**

My sub runs out tommorow night, ill cancel it soon. Overall I really like baduktv and the things I learned are pretty much the same as above.

Some fuseki/joseki, trickplays, info about the go world, how pros think, new moves, and motivation.

The biggest things were the motivation to play and study, and seeing how pros think alone made me grow a stone or two which is weird if you consider it isn't really learning any topic specifically.

Even buying the 7$ a month live 24/7 one could have pretty much the same impact, but the 20$ and 50$ packages are better if you have the money.

Overall I really enjoyed watching the videos and commentaries.

To compare... I would say in a month you would get a little less knowledge with the 50$ than a book, but for the 20$ it is better than a book, and for 7$ it blows kgs+ out of the water, even if you can't see saved videos and kgs+ has english, the fact is you still learn from the livestream and its 24/7.... motivation. kgs+ lectures in my opinion aren't as well done as the baduk tv lectures, and even with the language barrier have more content for you.

So baduk tv > kgs+. Two go books > 50$ baduk tv english. Baduk tv 20$ package (live +saved korean lectures) > a go book.

That is my run down, I am planning on buying the 7$ package for the next year probably, maybe even the 20-50$ packages here and there, I would suggest buying the english once every three months if you really want the english, so that the library of videos builds up a lot.

Posted: **Sun Nov 11, 2012 7:53 pm**

Since tommorow will be 7 days I will cancel my sub now so they don't charge me the 50$, feels very sad cancelling it, makes me regret not watching EVERY video in the english part.

I think ill try to convince my parents to buy the 7$ a month live 24/7

.

If not, ill get it for christmas

EDIT:

I got the 7$ a month one for doing dishes and stocking beverage everyday. She said if I want the english one I can do more stuff like sweep, dust, pick up dog "presents", and such.

Maybe ill do that every few months

.

Overall im happy with that arrangement.

Also I cancelled the english 50$ a month but I'm not 100% sure it worked because on paypal it says its cancelled but i can still view the english videos, maybe it takes time to shut it off so i can watch a few more tonight

.

Posted: **Sun Nov 11, 2012 8:12 pm**

korea is 14 hrs ahead of us so for myself a note is:

Thursday and Friday and Saturday at 5PM there is a lecture not a game review like normal.

Posted: **Sun Nov 11, 2012 10:44 pm**

Thanks for trying it out and taking the time to tell others how you found it. I'm really happy to hear that it's helped you to learn more and improve

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NoSkill let me know about this topic. I'll just clarify some things and answer the questions I saw. If I missed a question from someone, please let me know.

NoSkill wrote:Also I cancelled the english 50$ a month but I'm not 100% sure it worked because on paypal it says its cancelled but i can still view the english videos, maybe it takes time to shut it off so i can watch a few more tonight .

You paid $1 for 7 days of access, so you have 7 days on your account regardless of whether you cancel future payments or not. The same thing happens if you cancel your subscription in the middle of a month - you still have access for the remainder of the 30 days. This is something that perhaps confuses a lot of people. It's possible to buy the $1 trial and cancel payments immediately (for people who feel more comfortable doing that), and still have 7 days left to try it out.

Make the most of the day or two you have left to catch some more English videos.

NoSkill wrote:korea is 14 hrs ahead of us so for myself a note is:

Thursday and Friday and Saturday at 5PM there is a lecture not a game review like normal.

Have a look at the links at the bottom of the page for the Baduk TV Guide. It's possible to import the TV guide into a calendar and have it correct the times to your local timezone. That way you don't need to convert it yourself and, if you use the 'RSS feed for calendars' (the one that says 'best option for most people') your calendar software will automatically add the updated events whenever we update the TV guide. You can use it with something like Google Calendar (which you have if you have Gmail) or standalone software (like Outlook).

The same thing can be done with the Pro Go Calendar to get more information about pro tournaments in general and live games on Baduk TV. L19's trout is one of the awesome people who helps us keep the Pro Go Calendar up to date. Oren also helps out from time to time, so say thanks to them if you use it

.

I need to write some help pages about using calendar feeds and various other things when I have time. There are a lot of things I'd like to do with this if I had the time

.

Alguien wrote:I'd try it right now if it didn't mean having any kind of contact with paypal.

We've been working to add another payment method (for credit card), but we can't do anything until the bank finishes processing their precious paperwork :roll:

. I've been to the bank about this 5 times to fill in various forms and have meetings. It's taking a very long time (read: months). I'm not the biggest fan of Paypal either, but you have to admit that they get stuff done more quickly.

Hopefully it'll be ready before Christmas. I'll post something on GGG and L19 when an alternative payment method's available.

Splatted wrote:Does anyone know if they are deleting old videos or if this is just how long they've been making them? Also, how old are the becoming 5k videos? I'm hoping they'll still be there when I go for my $1 trial next month.

No, we'd never delete any videos unless there was something really wrong with them. Customers have paid for them and too much work goes into the translations to delete them!

The service is still very new, so there isn't a huge archive of English videos yet.

The $1 trial was an introductory offer that's going to be phased out once the day pass is tested and working. We lose money on the trial (and it causes a few other headaches for us), so we can't keep it going. I'll give at least one week's notice before ending it so that people who were waiting until later to try it don't miss out. If you're on the mailing list for the demo videos then you'll get an email to let you know what's happening. I'll also write something here. I wouldn't plan on there still being a $1 trial in December (though there will be other options).

Posted: **Mon Nov 12, 2012 3:03 am**

Thanks again gogameguru

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Posted: **Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:20 am**

gogameguru, did you already cancel the trial? I wanted to sign up but couldn't go through with the transaction. Paypal told me to choose another option from the shop...

Posted: **Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:34 am**

gogameguru wrote:You paid $1 for 7 days of access, so you have 7 days on your account regardless of whether you cancel future payments or not. The same thing happens if you cancel your subscription in the middle of a month - you still have access for the remainder of the 30 days. This is something that perhaps confuses a lot of people. It's possible to buy the $1 trial and cancel payments immediately (for people who feel more comfortable doing that), and still have 7 days left to try it out.

Thank you for doing it this way. The way in which so many subscription services handle cancellations really makes me angry. XD

Splatted wrote:Does anyone know if they are deleting old videos or if this is just how long they've been making them? Also, how old are the becoming 5k videos? I'm hoping they'll still be there when I go for my $1 trial next month.

gogameguru wrote:No, we'd never delete any videos unless there was something really wrong with them. Customers have paid for them and too much work goes into the translations to delete them! The service is still very new, so there isn't a huge archive of English videos yet.

This is great to hear. ^^

gogameguru wrote:The $1 trial was an introductory offer that's going to be phased out once the day pass is tested and working. We lose money on the trial (and it causes a few other headaches for us), so we can't keep it going. I'll give at least one week's notice before ending it so that people who were waiting until later to try it don't miss out. If you're on the mailing list for the demo videos then you'll get an email to let you know what's happening. I'll also write something here. I wouldn't plan on there still being a $1 trial in December (though there will be other options).

My Christmas holiday is ruined! :lol:

Life In 19x19

Buying baduk TV english for a week

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Re: Buying baduk TV english for a week

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Re: Buying baduk TV english for a week

Re: Buying baduk TV english for a week